People have asked me about develpoing and doing my own concept. Truth is. Building my GN layout would be Phases I, II and III. In my 60 Year plan. (Yes 60 years just like the way the Jappaneese do things) I plan develop build and operate my own Star Trek inspired star base (Because I am a Trekie first Model train nut second) and as I expand the underground level expands with it giving me more and more room to expand the Model Railroad. After I complete Phase III I have accomplished all of my personal GN related objectives and then I am just expanding the model railroad to be expanding the Model Railroad. The V&O seemed to be a worthy subject to tackle. First to see if I could do it. And second. I am sure we all felt a sense of loss when the Afton Division came down. (How could the guy who bought the house not realise what he had??) I feel I am talanted eneugh and have the brass to actually pull it off.
I would build it as it appeared in the Jan 1998 MR. Though model it to match my Dec. 1969 period of my GN layout. They would even be connected with a giant huge staging yard represenging the connections east of the GN and west of the V&O. I could even put the AM in here as well I feel. But the V&O is my current focus.
Go for it! Allen would likely feel honored. As for Tony Koester, he’s actually mellowed out quite a bit over the years. If you want to take it a step further, write the MR Staff a letter and have them forward it to Tony or Allen. They may reply to you and actually provide some tips.
Whether they answer you or not, you would benefit as would the rest of us when you share you experiences with the new layout.
There is absolutely no legal reason why you can’t build it. Copyright laws are designed to prevent someone from making money from someone elses creativity and work. If you hand write a copy of music it is perfectly legal. You just can’t sell it. You can’t make a copy of it because that deprives the owner from revenue. You can make anything you want for your own usage up through a 747 if you could but you can’t sell it when you are done. ao have at it. besides the V&O was based on a plan MR published for a garage sized layout. i believe it was the Puget SOund something or other. It is 101 track plans.
There is I think a V&O historical and/or technical society… founded by Allen and his wife I believe. I remember reading that sometime in MR. I don’t know if they are still around. That would primarily be a resource in itself. But go for it.
The actual printed article/trackplan is covered by ‘intellectual property’ for comercial use, but you are free to use it for your own personal use.
An example would be to paint Disney characters on your home. This is not a problem as long as their are no local building ordinance issues. Now, if you built a ‘Day Care’ center and did this, Disney would be all over you. This is because you are a ‘for profit’ business.
I model the Milwaukee Road, and my ‘private cars’ for swapping are MDC 40’ rib side boxcars - with MP&N reporting marks. The Mineral Point & Northern was the private HO railroad of the late Paul Larsen(former MR editor). I never met him, but I do not think his family would have a problem with ‘using’ the name. You can even get ‘Gore & Daphetid’ decals(http://www.greatdecals.com/GregKomar.htm).
Recently, I watched a Great Layouts segment on RFD-TV about a fellow who built a near exact replica of a now defunct classic layout of the Delta lines. Sorry, I cannot remember the names of people involved. When he built his layout, he used the plan for the Delta lines without knowing much about the original modeler. When one of his friends explained the significance of the original layout (as well as the master modeler), the second modeler took up the cause in a big way. The original Delta lines had been broken up and parcelled out after the owner’s death. His new layout gave him a chance to model an excellent concept and to keep alive the tradition of the original layout.
As long as you are open about what you are doing, you should go ahead and do what you want.
HI all
All those that have borrowed bits from published ,your friends and forum friends layouts
put up your hands.
OI!! You at the Back Get your hand up[:D]
We have all done it at one time or another a classic for that off the top of my head
the time saver yard .
What do you mean you got from the the GN&SR well sorry folks those in the know
will tell you it orriginaly came from one of the great men of model railways
All of the great men have had their layout or bits of it borrowed twisted to fit so called improvements made ect
All of the truly great modellers will not give a *** if you do that.
However I can understand if they get snotty when you want to take the name as well
That usualy means some art work they thought about for hours that are probably well out
of proportion to the finished logo.
A friend of mine and I used to exchange cars even whole trains between layouts
both had our own identity for our layouts a part that was us and us alone.
It is this piece that each of us should jealously guard as ours alone.
If any of you thought my ideas on a layout were worth reproducing thats great
go for it.
You toucha da Totem [V] I haffta senda da boys around.
That piece is me and you cannot have it go find your own
(Totem = the round badge that has the identity of my railway on it)
regards John
There is a V&O group on Yahoo. While Allen does not directly participate, many of the participants do know Allen personally. They can take your questions to Allen and get answers for you.
Ya, I was going to suggest attempting to contact Allen McClelland and see what he thinks. True he really doesn’t need to give you permission to copy the V&O (I’ve seen layouts in MR based on both John Allen’s first layout and on his later ‘fullsize’ G&D line for example, they didn’t need to get John’s permission to do that) but it might be nice to see what he says, what advice he could give. I suspect he might be flattered, from everything I’ve seen/heard about him he’s a nice guy.
My current layout consists of 5 sections (well, maybe 6) of Bachmann EZ Track on top of my desk which I use as a test and display track. If anyone tries to build one just like that, I will sue them…
bwilcox has it right. Why would Kalmbach or Atlas publi***rack plans no one could use? I’m sure Allen is a great guy, but if he would get angry about a copy of his pike, he’d have a serious mental problem, I believe. What’s the big deal? Are we in this country really that sensitive to legal issues of copying? A legal war over a model railroad would be ridiculous, unless you were charging people to come to your house to see it, maybe. And that’s a big maybe. Even then, pretty goofy thing to sue about. Have fun with it!
Lately I have been thinking of doing something similar to the Utah Belt but in N scale. I really like the mix of desert and mountains on that layout. I think I would be more satisfied with something of my own creation rather than copying someone else’s.
I’m glad this topic came up. Lately I have been wondering if the owners of these layouts had trademarks on their logos or ideas.
I am afraid so. Even if I am legally well within my limits to manufacure and operate my own copy of something for my own pleasure. There are people out there who seem to have nothing better to do that cause people misery. (Look at Mike Wolf and his legal battle over DCS and DCC) Even if I am legally right. The expense of getting a lawyer, answering the summons, and settling the matter, going to court, or just even getting it thrown out (which would probably happen in wyoming given the people who sit on the bench at the local state and federal level.) Is a considerable expense of many thousand dollars for even the most trivial matters that in truth be told should be settled by an old fashioned Gentleman’s or Ladies agreement. But sadly personal honor seems to only have clout with Klingons and Model Railroaders. So given the expense of even winning a legal case. Did you really win? So I want to make sure all my ducks are in a row before I start.
Moiving on to other portions of this conversation. Many people have said I should contact Allen McClelland. I will do that. I will right him a nice letter and see what he says about it. When I finish it, I would like to be able to invite Allen and his crew over to have a guest op session.
I digging deeper into my research. Many sections of the original layout still exist and can be made a vailable to me for technicle reference. Fullerton, Clintwood, and Blackstone still exist. I have been corrispoinding with the owner of the Fullerton Section and he has agreed to help me in anyway he can for ensuring my copy of fullerton is correct.
Thank you all for the positive feedback. As I feel greatly encouraged to pursuie this endeavor further.
Hi James
I can understand your jitters, in this day and age litigation has over ruled
common sense.
There is only two winners in a court case and both of them are the lawyers
The guy that wins pay’s the lawyer and ends up with nothing
The guy that looses gets nothing and still pays the lawyer
so the lawyers win every time.
I think we might be playing the wrong game[:O][swg]
regards John
I think your right. While I have the vice grip like mind and the debating skills of a lawyer, I do not have the patients to sit through 8 years of law school. To bad I am not female. I hear prostitutes make similar wages.
The problem I am having is that its just GONE! Sections of the original have been preserved. But they will never again be together as a functioning model railroad. So its just gone! The afton Division of the V&O is the single most pioneering railroad that has ever existed. For 40 years it blazed a bold and new trail in model railroading showing people what was possible. And now its gone. I personally feel that the fellow that purchased the old house and made him tear it down aught to be hung. How could he not understand the importance of what was there. So now its gone. I am also having regrets that my own efforts to save it failed miserably and I guess I am somehow looking for a second chance to do so. While I realise that what I build would only be a copy. I am hoping to make my copy exacting eneugh that Allan can pronounce the Afton Divsion Ressurected. Now if I can only build it before he dies. Besides I am also proceeding with plans for my own GN Model Railroad just for the very reason that no one can’t accuseme of executing my own ideas.