I have been taken up with a bout of V&O fevor. As you all know. We all mourned the loss of the V&O’s Afton Divistion. However lately I have been pre-occupied with the thought of resurecting it. Eneugh documentation exists that the track plan can be recreated easily eneugh and key structures exist that copies can be made of. I have also been toying with the thought of adding the Gauley Divison and the AM to it as well just connecting them via a modeled Kingswood junction.
While I am forgin a head with my plans for a GN layout for now. I have wanted to find out what flack, problems, and or hostility I might encounter If after I built my GN layout, I built my own copy of the V&O set in the same period as my GN layout.
I literally remember an article in MR once - almost positive it was in “Trains of Thought”, where Tony Koester encountered a reader who wanted to make an interchange or something with his layout.
He did not like the idea, and in nicer words said, “come up with your own railroad, don’t steal mine…”
Even if it were copyrighted, no one could be so exact it would infringe. Some one could claim copyright on the name or the logo, but would they really do that? No copyright issues are valid unless you try to make money off it. So - Send us some pic of progress.
I was thinking about building my own adaptation of the Gorre & Daphetid, I was going to build another division of it. John Allens G&D was envisioned as a single division of a bigger Class 1 railroad, so I was going to start mine in Great divide and run it East. Then I decided not to because I was affraid of being labled unoriginal. So now my railroad is just simply going to have an interchange with the G&D.
There is no accounting for flack and hositility, especially from those who had nothing to do with the original.
Legally - I’m sure you are going to violate all the copyrights, patents and intellectual property rights granted to the V&O. My suspicion is that is about zero.
Morality - Those nudist colony and witch burning scenes will probably cause you a problem, as well as the plan to have half of one of your towns husbands keeping company with the other half’s wives. People will be picketing outside your house, for sure.
I suspect a few layouts have been built with similar ideas and I am not aware of any problems. I’m also sure the more self-righteous will want you tarred and feathered, the railroad dismantled and burned, the ashes collected and given to NASA to ship into outer space. But if they weren’t fighting mad about your railroad, they would be fighting mad about something else, so that is not a big deal.
Yes, it has been a long day here and most of the above is tongue-in-cheek. If you admire it, can build it and do it justice, more power to you. I probably wouldn’t invite Joe over to produce a video entitled “The Most Original Model Railroad Ever,” but I’m sure he would steer you in the right direction, anyway.
If anyone wants to copy my layout, good luck. They’ll probably finish it before I do, begging the question of which is the original and which is the copy.
The layout, its plans, etc…public domain…not any way it can be trademarked, service marked or patented.
I look at printed layout designs…like those layout books…they are like recipies…follow the directions, make your own variation…even if you are literal…its still going to have variations…make yourself happy…that’s what this is all about.
I don’t see that any different than modeling a real railroad like the C&O, B&O, or any other x&O. [:)] The big difference is that you could truely model the whole thing if you wanted. The reason people publi***heir work is to inspire others and provide a “model” to copy cat from.
As for me, the inspiration of the V&O is that I am striving to develop my own free lance to that level. That is also why I disagree with those who give the advice “It’s your railroad you can do whatever you want”. People who heed that advice and follow that philosophy will never achieve anything close to the V&O.
That’s not my sense of what Mr. Koester wrote in the July 1998 Model Railroader Trains of Thought column. The pull out quote in the center of the page reads “Modeling someone else’s freelanced railroad probably wouldn’t be as fulfilling as he’d thought”.
Others may read into the article what they choose, of course. There are good reasons not to copy a famous layout and I’ll post them a little later.
I have done a fair amount of research on the V&O. When the Afton Division was set in 1968, Allen McClelland wrote that in the Nov 1982 Issiue that it was set in July. According to the Pentrex Video the 1975 Version is set in August. My GN layout is set the third full week of december before christmas. And if I build my version of the V&O I would do the same. (Mainly so I can foward traffic from the GN to the V&O). I would do at least the afton division by Building the trackplan that appeared in the Jan 1998 issiue. And setting up a similar roster as portrayed in the Nov 1982 issiue. However I would probably run longer passenger trains than shown in the 1968 version because of it being the Christmas season and all the travel that goes along with it. As well as extra sections. However only one man really knows what happened on the V&O December of 1969. And It seems I am effectly blocked from reaching him. There has to be a roster of locomotives on the V&O someplace but I have yet to find it…
So to get back to ARTHILL’s comments about it being an exact copy. It would be different in the ways specified and thus should satisfy any legal interpritation of copywrite infringment. However I would want it to still be easily recognised as the V&O Afton Division. It is just the nitty Gritty Technicle details I would like to have are hard to come by. Especially since I can not seem to find mailable address so I can corrispond with Mr. McClelland.
However what I find here is encouraging so I will continue with my research. I am finding that how Mr. McClelland set up the V&O researching it is like researching a real railroad. Just that there seems to be one source for all the information and like to have details are hard to come by.
As for me, I say go ahead, but only if you will enjoy doing it! Isn’t that what it’s all about?? Are we really so shallow as to run out and say, " He copied my so and so!" SO WHAT! Anyone who would like to copy my stuff is welcome to it. Probly could do a better job then me anyway! Go for it!
Wow. It seems unlikely that most of us would have the time, space, money, and energy to build two (or three with the AM!) full layouts.
And which V&O would one choose to copy? The 1961 design? As built in the '70s? The version with changes made in the intervening years? The “idealized” V&O for a larger space (The V&O Story; page 68)? The current version he is building based on everything he learned from and did not like about the earlier V&O(s)?
One major problem with building a copy of someone else’s layout is that their preferences, interests, capabilities, etc. will doubtless be different than yours. Heck, in the case of Mr. McClelland, Mr. Hitchcock, and Mr. Koester, for example, their current preferences are different from their own preferences at the time they built their first large layouts.
I know that some things just get posted to generate conversation, but why would you want to copy someone else’s layout … especially one conceived and designed 35 years ago? So much has changed in what we collectively know about operations, construction techniques, design concepts, etc. That’s partly why Mr. McClelland made so many changes from the original V&O when he built the new one.
If one really had that much time, space, and energy, my suggestion would be to use it to make the layout designed to fit your own concept better and more engaging.
I don’t imagine that there are any legal, moral, or ethical reasons not to copy …
Oh, Oh!!! I think the imitation and flattery police are on their way… Is that a siren I hear??? They got police for everything these days. Tell ya what! Go ahead and make a copy of it, but don’t tell anybody. OK? Mum’s the word… I KNOW NUUUUTTING!!! Have fun!
Dramatic, but perhaps untrue. Model Railroader magazine forwards mail it receives from the public sent “care of” the magazine to any of its authors. Whether that author replies or not is, of course, up to them.
By the way, the V&O rosters for 1958 and 1968 are found on page 96 of The V&O Story (Carstens, 1984)
Each to his own - I would use the V&O like any other trackplan - as a starting point / inspiration for my own desires. But even if you want to copy it exactly I don’t see it as moral issue. After all, a lot of us copied a trackplan exactly for out first layout - I know I did.
Enjoy
Paul
Personally, I wouldn’t recommend anyone building someone else’s layout. But before I spent any money building structures or converting the engine’s paint schemes, I’d get a good CAD program and draw the layout in your space. The layout drawings that appear in the magazine are just that, drawings. They fit the space in the magazine are not scale drawings. make sure you can work out the discrepancies.
Then even when you can work them out, you have to be sure the adjustments you made didn’t eliminate a key structure needed for operation, or make a spur too short.
So draw it all out down to the structures and landscape to see if you can get it right. At $50/sq ft, you want to make sure you have it figured out before you build.
Well, if it were my layout that was being copied, I think I’d be honored. I also would be interested in what things came out differently, and what different techniques were used.
One of my favorite aspects of Model Railroading is the uniqueness of each and every layout. Chinese factories may stamp out engines and cars, indistinguishable from each other, but when you put them in the hands of individuals, then the personalities and skills of the modellers take over.
No two layouts are ever alike. Celebrate the diversity of the hobby. Go ahead.
I have a copyright on my website, and do have a layout design posted there. I, however, would feel honored if someone (in fact a couple modelers have) used the trackplan, especially if they can improve on it!
When I get my new layout design finalized and begin construction, I will be putting it on my website and anyone would be free to use it if they wanted.
I doubt if anyone “owns” a model railroad. THe UP police are not going to swoop down on your layout if you happen to run some yellow diesels. Your layout will become your version of whatever RR you build.
Allen Keller has produced at least 50 model RR videos. I doubt if any 2 of the layouts are te same. He may have gone back to reshoot some of the earlier ones, but there are no duplicates in the series.
I don’t see why you can’t try to do a version of the V&O with new ideas. Part of the fun of model railroading is to do a what if- the V&O was as big as the UP & could survive into 1970’s or later.