Hello all, I have a quick question about camel-back locomotives. I know the Reading Railroad used them as coal haulers and yard switchers, my question is this-What was the largest wheel arrangement used? Also, to what advantage was there of such a design? I have seen pictures of them and think they are a really interesting looking locomotive. Oh, one more question, does anyone know if there are any in a museum somewhere? Thank you in advance for responses.
Hi CR fan
Somewhere in my dusty memory I recall that the reason the camelback cab was moved ahead of the firebox was because of the grate area needed for Anthracite coal the cab just wouldn’t fit over the firebox so they bumped it forward.
I also recall seeing a photo where a broken main rod had completely wiped the side of the cab off… and the engineer with it!
Ed
The Reading, Lehigh Valley, CNJ and several other roads used camelbacks in all types of service including passenger.
The reason for the wide firebox was so the anthracite coal used by these railroads would burn more efficiently. Anthracite is a very hard coal compared to the bituminous coal used by most roads and required more air and a thinner layer of coal on the grates to burn properly.
The disadvantage was that they were so wide the cabs had to be located over the boiler exposing the fireman to all the elements and causing a communications problem between him and the engineer. This also proved to be a very hot and dangerous location for the engineer as someone stated in another post.
I’ve seen photos of 2-8-8-2 camels before but I don’t know if that was the largest wheel arrangement made.
The B&O RR Museum in Baltimore has a beautiful CNJ 4-4-2 or 4-6-0 camelback on display. There is a Reading A-5 (?) 0-4-0 camel at Strasburg. I believe these are the last 2 examples in the USA.
Roger
With regards to the comment that a camelback’s cab is in “a very hot and dangerous location”, I doubt that the cab would be any hotter than one in a conventional location. The firebox is where the boiler is hottest, not the barrel.
The CNJ loco at the B&O Museum is a 4-4-2, # 592. There is another camelback preserved, D&LW 4-4-0 #952, at the Museum of Transporation in St. Louis. The articulated camelbacks were 0-8-8-0s, belonging to the Erie.
Cheers,
Mark.
As it happens Col. Hal’s column in the April '07 Railfan and Railroad is about camelbacks, might want to check it out.
I know there were articulated Mother Hubbards, but the longest single wheelbase I’ve seen anything about is the 2-10-0 Mother Hubbard used for pusher service.
Mother Hubbards and Camelbacks are two names that are used to describe these loco’s. To many, the terms are interchangable. There is also the Winans Camel. The main spotting difference is the position of the cab. Many would say that a Mother Hubbard has the cab position astride the boiler while a Winans Camel has the cab, oftentimes open, on top of the boiler. Each have advantages and disadvantages. The biggest advantage to being atop the boiler is that at slow speeds you can see REALLY good. The disadvantage is that once you speed up you can have a lot of smoke in your face. Either way, your feet get cooked! The biggest advantage to the astride the boiler position is a great view at speed. The disadvantage is if a rod comes loose and “wipes the clock” so to speak.
Here’s a couple of pics to show what I’m talking about.
This is a Mother Hubbard or Camelback…
This is a Winans Camel…
I suspect the largest Camelback was the Erie 0-8-8-0. There are more images on this link
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/erie2600.jpg
Dave Nelson
thank you to all who replied. Went to the fallen flags website and found pictures of the LV 0-8-8-0 camel-backs, impressive looking. To Stix, is the name of the magazine you reffered to “Railfan and Railroad” or is it two separate names? Also , do you know if the magazine is available on the internet?
Meant to say Erie in the last post, not the LV. sorry for the error, confusion.
The terms Camel and Camelback seem to be frequently confused and may have changed meaning over time. The cab on top was originally called the Camel and the cab astride the midpoint of the boiler called the Camelback.
This page at the B&O museum has both http://www.toytrains1.com/museum-bo.htm
Enjoy
Paul
IRON,
I didn’t know that. Maybe thats where the confusion comes from, huh?
!
Well, I know that UP had at least 1 4-4-0. I saw a pic once, or I wouldn’t have believed it myself.
Camelbacks and Mother Hubbards, a very interesting class of locomotives! Although we generally use the two terms interchangeably, there definitely needs to be some clarification, as these two types are not at all the same thing.
The first of the two to come into existence is the Camelback. The type came into being when the B&O drew up plans for a locomotive that would handle tough grades. The first models were 0-8-0s with a wide, deep firebox. The engine ran on 8 very small wheels centered under the middle of the frame. The wide firebox prevented mounting the cab at the rear, but the short wheels allowed it to be placed above the boiler top. The engines had one large steam collecting dome that ran up through the middle of the cab, allowing the safety valves to be positioned outside of the cab. That single dome, coupled with the high position of the cab, led many engineer’s to remark that running one of them was “like sitting on a camels back”, and the name stuck.
Camelback locomotives had a firebox that had a rearward sloping roof and they extended all the way from the rear coupler to way under the cab. The extreme length of these fireboxes required “Firehatches” to be installed in the roof of the firebox to allow coal to be fed into the forward portions of the firebox. In effect, a camelback had the equivalent of 2 or 3 firedoors, spaced up to 12 feet apart.
The most notable Camelback was the 12 coupled ridged framed “Philadelphia” build for the Philadelphia and Reading Railroad. The locomotive was particularly notable because it had no tender. It was used on a short but very steep section of track, and specifically built to serve as a booster for the grade. As there were servicing facilities at each end of the grade, the locomotive would be stoked and watered at each end of it’s designated run, which was short enough that it could make the run before burning all the coal in the firebox. Only a small emergency tank of
The largest Camelbacks ever built.
Erie’s trio of 0-8-8-0 pushers:
Largest locomotives ever built when they rolled out of the Alco shops in 1907.
All three were later rebuilt by Baldwin with traditional “rear cabs” and converted to 2-8-8-2’s
Erie L1 class, also called “Angus class”
Scot
Mother hubbard type engines were built first. Winans were a populat make. They had a conventional firebox and the cab was a large “pavillion” on top of the boiler in the middle of the engine. The largest of these designs were 0-12-0’s. The Reading had some as pushers on the West Falls grade into Phillie.
A Reading master mechanic named Wooten devised a wide firebox to burn anthracite and anthracite culm. It required a very wide firebox because the anthracite needed a very thin bed of coals to burn best. By this time the “mother hubbard” style engines had fallen out of favor and end cabs were the standard. The original Wooten Firebox engines had end cabs, they were just perched on top of the firebox.
The Reading sent a engine and a crew to Italy to demonstrate the Wooten firebox. The Italian clearances were so tight that the engine couldn’t fit through the tunnels due to being too tall. The Reading crew moved the cab and linkages (this is in the days when an engineer was an called an engineer for a reason) astride the boiler to lower the overall height of the engine so it would fit through the Italian tunnels. The Reading trips were successful demonstration, but unsuccessful in no locomotives were sold. So the first true “camelback” wasn’t French, it was an American engine operting on Italian rails.
The engine and crew returned home and the Reading saw that it was an easy way to increase the size of the engine without making the engine taller, and so the Camelback became the cab style of choice for Wooten firebox engines. Eventually they increased the clearances enough and changed the designs to make end cab Wooten firebox engines practical.
If you want more details on the camelback history, there is a 2 volume histroy of the Reading, a coal age empire that has extensive documentation.
Dave H.
Nope, it’s not a camelback. It’s Winans Camel, no back. Camelbacks have Wootten fireboxes, which are very wide and sit on top of the frame rather than between the framerails like it’s contemporaries’ design.
They are fired with a thin layer of coal unlike their contemporaries’ which have deep fireboxes which are fired with a thick layer of coal.
Winans camels do not. They have standard fireboxes between the framerails.
Behold the awesome power of the edit post button.
As has been pointed out, there is quite some confusion on this. You may very well be right though. You seem to be more on top of it then I am. Perhaps the confusion is due to a lack of knowledge of something that is just so old.
I agree…
this:
Is a Winans Camel. period. it is not a “Camelback” OR a “Mother Hubbard”
as to “Camelback” Vs. “Mother Hubbard” - IMO they are interchangable terms describing any loco with the cab on the boiler, except for the Winans Camel. I dont believe there is any clear difference to call one type Camelback and a different type Mother Hubbard.
Camelback AND/OR Mother Hubbard:
Winans Camel - not a Camelback or a Mother Hubbard:
Scot