Just curious to know how many trains a day Canadian Pacific operates between Edmonton and Calgary onwards to Lethbridge and Coutts/Sweetgrass. What kind of loads are delivered, I imagine all kinds especially grain and other agricutrual products.
From Lethbridge south to the BN interchange it is generally just one return trip each day, heading south very early in the morning. I don’t think there is much in the way of agricultural products interchanged, but CP may be getting some traffic originating at the elevators at Sweetgrass and routing it to the UP connection at Kingsgate/Eastport. One of the commodities has been diesel fuel that the BN sourced from the refineries at Edmonton. I imagine forest products go that way too, but haven’t actually seen a train recently. I have seen lots of cars with plate steel in Calgary that may have come north that way. In the past there have been very occasional solid trains of coal and potash.
North of Lethbridge, and especially north of Calgary, there are more trains. I think the train to Coutts is assembled at Lethbridge with cars set off by other general freights. The Coutts interchange seems to have a tradition of fairly modest volume. Passenger service in the summer of 1955 was a once a week mixed train making a return trip on Tuesdays.
John
Doc,
I’m glad John stepped up to the plate to answer you question first. All I am able to report is what I observe going down the Deerfoot Trail or going over the Zoo siding on 16 Ave. NE.
What I see is mostly bulk commodities. Petrochemicals in Procor tank-cars and other tank cars of different colours, Sulfur in Sultran hoppers and bathtub gondolas, Potash in Canpotex covered hoppers, and grain covered hoppers. Canpotex has dock facilities in both Portland, OR and Vancouver and UP handles the Portland loads through Kingsgate. Sultran has their own facility in Vancouver and some sulfur does go to US Pacific ports as well.
Based on what I’m hearing on my newly re-set-up scanner there seem to be quite a few trains.
What I still don’t know though is this: After NAFTA was signed in the 90’s CP and Union Pacific announced a partnership to bring manufactured goods from Mexico to Calgary and Edmonton. I presume this would have come in containers, so if this agreement ever came to pass they must run these trains in the dead of night, because I can only recall ever seeing containers on that rum maybe once or twice. That is about all the info I have.
AgentKid
There are six trains (3 north, 3 south) daily between Edmonton and Calgary (there are others but they originate or terminate at intermediate points).
Once the trains get to Calgary, they either turn west, turn east, get consolidated into larger trains or get humped. Therefore, I cannot comment on anything south of Calgary.
Most of the traffic out of Edmonton is oil based with some lumber, sulfur and grain mixed in. Inbound to Edmonton we see a lot of empty tank cars, with loads of steel, cement and autos.
There are 2 intermodal trains a day (1 east, 1 west) that originate/terminate in Edmonton, too.
CN is the big player in Edmonton, as their main runs through Edmonton.
Thanks for the information. I used to live in both Edmonton & Calgary and wondered what was being hauled between the two cities. I remember sitting by the rail bridge in Calgary by the fish hatchery and watching the odd train go by. Now I recall seeing a fair amount of potash and sulfur going by. Where is the place that Canadian Pacific picks up the sulfur loads? Inquiring minds want to know of course.[:D]
Basic Petrochemical industry lesson first, as posted by me in the Trackside Lounge, July 26.
If you look at a map of Alberta you will see the SW boundary between us and BC follows the Great Divide. If you draw a parallel line 200 miles to the east, all of Alberta’s sulfur is produced between these two lines.
So, the further north you go, the further west of the Calgary-Edmonton line you have to go to get the sulfur.
On the Red Deer Sub, there are from south to north; the East Crossfield, Shantz, and Doan Spurs. On the Leduc Sub. there is the southern remains of the Hoadley Sub., and the northern remains of the Hoadley Sub. now called the Breton Sub. Back in the day, the Hoadley Sub. ran from Jackson (Red Deer) to Leduc, in an arc west of the Leduc Sub.
There is that new Scotford Sub. they opened up NE of Edmonton, but I’m not sure if sulfur comes from those plants. Also, recalling my days employed in the oil patch, I can recall other sulfur plants but I do not know what the CPR calls those locations.
This is the type of thing cptrainman refers to when he says they get consolidated into larger trains. I don’t know if any of these plants load enough cars at a time to make their own unit trains. All of Alberta’s major sulfur producers own a stake in Sultran, the company that owns the hoppers used to ship the sulfur.
That’s all I have for now.
AgentKid
A number of Potash trains will join the Edmonton-Calgary line at Wetaskiwin and turn south for export. This traffic originates in eastern . This line is treated as a secondary mainline and runs from Portage la Prairie, MB through Saskatoon, SK to Wetaskiwin, AB. Traffic to and from Winnipeg and Edmonton are the main through traffic. At least one (each way) stack/merchandise train moves over the line each day as well as grain when needed. I do not know if any low priority freights from to would use this line.
Molten Sulfur comes from the Shell Upgrader in Scotford, AB about 30 miles east of Edmonton. Before the economic meltdown we saw unit trains, but now we are seeing blocks of about 30 to 60 at a time once or twice a week.
CP has big plans for the scotford sub, as it has been upgraded to 30mph in parts from 10mph and CWR is being installed east from Edmonton. There is already 1 yard in Scotford and there are plans for 2 more yards, but again with the slow down, I think most of this has been put on hold.
I live in Shelby (nee: Shelby Junction), MT, 35-miles south of the Sweetgrass/Coutts border crossing/interchange. Shelby is on the BNSF Montana Division “Hi Line Sub” and meets the Sweetgrass Sub and the Great Falls Sub… Traffic on the Great Falls Sub goes south to “all over”: Kansas City, Denver, Ft. Worth, etc… BNSF, usually, runs one 100±car merchandise train north to Canada (“The Canadian Zephyr”). Traffic from Canada is, largely, petroleum products. Northbound it is cement, empty tank cars, and general merchandise (both ways), as well a Caterpillar construction equipment and farm equipment. We do get the occasional dedicated “windmill train” going to Alberta. Depending on the deals, we sometimes get unit potash trains (“Canpotex”) that head west from here. They are 120+ car trains and require five Dash 9-C44W locos in a 3-2 DP set-up. I think the UP has the business, if there is any, this year. Cross-border grain traffic is not a factor. We also host the daily Amtrak “Empire Builder”. Connecting bus service was discontinued a few years ago via Greyhound (“Rimrock”/“Dog Canada”), but the busses ran empty, other than packages (“B C Bud”?), for the most part.
Years ago, there was passenger service. One could board the CB&Q “Night Crawler” in Denver CO and get to Calgary, AB, via Shelby, eventually. Today, the “Border NAZIs” (on both sides) would lengthen that trip considerably, methinks.
For your “scanning pleasure”, the daily BNSF Merchandise train to Sweetgrass/Coutts is known as the M-LAUSWE, or vice-versa, as it originates in LAUrel, MT and terminates in SWEetgrass, MT, or v.v. The “M” is for merchandise, of low priority. It is also known as train #845, in both north- and south-directions.
We do get a few unit coal trains from the south, heading west, as well as a lot of unit grain trains doing the same. Had quite a flood her the past two weeks when Montana Rail Link’s Mullan Tunnel caved in. Quite a bit of detour traffic, via Laurel, plus BNSF overhead trains that would, usually, take that route. The tunnel is open now and things have quieted down.
I visit my ten (well, eight, now) first cousins in High River, AB a lot and the highways follow the BNSF/CPR lines most of the way. I rue the loss of the old grain elevators, especially in Canada, where they didn’t clad them in ugly corrugated Galvanized steel. Ain’t many left. Alberta routes 4, 3, and 2 are all twin, now that Milk River has been bypassed. Zoom!!! Not much left of the railway junction in Sterling, and the Fort MacLeod-High River line has been dismantled. Quite a change since I first visited Alberta in 1954! At least “Big Rock” beer is there, all the others having been bought out by A-B Inbev (Belgian) and SABMiller (South African)… I like to keep my custom in the US or Canada!
Oops! I got carried away and forgot to mention that the BNSF Sweetgrass Sub. and the Great Falls Sub. operate on AAR Channel 70. You will hear them calling for/cancelling track warrants on 70. The BNSF “Hi Line” is on Channel 7, among others. In Restricted Limits (ex-Yard Limits) Shelby, they do most work on Channel 7, as does Amtrak (entirely).
What ‘killed’ the Calgary-Edmonton CPR RDC “Dayliner” trains was the numerous highway grade crossing accidents. Very numerous! If service is to be restored, grade crossing separation will have to be a priority. This is very expensive. An RDC, though it usually “won”, was not able to toss a loaded grain truck very far. Even hitting a silly Toyota ‘Prius’ would shut down the line today. When approaching a flashing crossing signal, at a road crossing, “Here, hold my Big Rock and watch this!” is not an acceptable comment!
Bill Hays, Shelby, MT
Info from “Shelberia”: Lots of Procor tank cars on the Shelby (BNSF) - Lethbridge (CPR) line. Canpotex unit trains are on-again, off-again. Off, this year. They are huge trains! No container/TOFCs. We did have a TOFC transload in Shelby. Trailers would be trucked from Canada and sent east, west, and south. It was a time-consuming operation and closed a few years ago. Good try, anyhow. Maybe, with the persnickitiness of the border NAZIs at Sweetgrass/Coutts (both sides!) it may be reconfigured to Alberta-US TOFC traffic, without the transload and border hassles for the trucks.
Things quieting down, here, with MRLs Mullan tunnel re-opened and the “Windmill Season” about over. The ‘harvest’ is in full-swing.
Coutts, AB does have a “sorry-looking” leased switcher based there. Dunno who owns/leases it, but they do drag northbound grain loads out of Sweetgrass, MT on a special, separate track. It would be worth looking into if the border crossing wasn’t such a pain (allow an hour, if things aren’t too busy). Maybe our 6-row barley is of interest to the Canadian breweries.
Bill Hays – Shelby, MT
Funny, sad, but true.
Ending the RDC service had an impact on my family. The Calgary-Edmonton service ended on Sept. 15, 1985. When that happened it was possible for the CPR to downgrade from ABS to MBS, a forerunner of OCS or Track Warrant Control for our US readers. Simply put the line went dark.
After having had unsatisfactory experiences laying off men at the bottom of the seniority list only to have to retrain new hires later, this time the CPR offered early retirement to the 12 top men on the list. The deal was, they were going to pay my father, who was 58 at the time, 80% of his final wage until he turned 65.
So ended my father’s railway career, on November 15, 1985. He started copying commercial telegrams, worked in mountain stations where in winter the snow would be higher than the eaves on the stations, hooped mainline crack transcontinental passenger trains running well over 60 MPH on the Saskatchewan prairie at 2 AM when it was 30 below in a driving snowstorm. raised a family in a branchline station with only four scheduled trains a week, and finally dispatched trains for 20 years in Calgary. I mention this because MBS was computerized, and it was the only time in my father’s career that he was afraid to try something new. He did very well for a man who never had a high school diploma, but learning that PC really had him on his heels. You wouldn’t believe how happy he was to get that early retirement offer.
Just to touch on your TOFC comment, CP retired its’ TOFC cars in 2005, as I understand it. They only do containerized intermodal now.
Clarifications:
6-row barley: we do grow a lot of 2-row barley in Montana. It is the preferred barley for beer brewers. Unfortunately, most of it winds up in the swill brewed by A-B InBev (the world’s largest rice consumer for their Budweiser) and SABMiller for their silly Coor’s. I doubt if the archaic/Socialist/Manitoba-controlled ‘Canadian Wheat Board’ would allow us to export any 2-row to Canada. 6-row makes great cattle feed! Alberta beef is the best (Red Angus, that is).
National Socialists: I referred to our border secutity services by the acronym of Hitler’s National Socialist Party. It was censored (*** [should have been ****s]). Maybe the Socialists in Wisconsin are a bit touchy. Have a SABMiller “Leinenkugel”, guys. Be glad all the profits go to South Africa!
Bill Hays – Shelby, MT (expecting a reprimand. I’ll take my chances.)
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Excuse me, but I have been getting a bit “off-topic” lately. If anyone wants to expand this discussion “back channel”, I am at wdh@mcn.net . It is August, I know, but Cabin Fever lingers!
“Ed-Ca”??? Aktrak uses a trinome “City Code” for stations. Some of these correspond with airline trinomes: LAX = Los Angeles, PDX = Portland. Some differ: NYG = New York, Grand Central Terminal, NYP = New York, Pennsylvania Station. IDL/JFK/LAG, of course, are not used. Some of Amtrak’s trinomes differ from those of the host railroads. Shelby, MT is SBY on Amtk, SBM on BNSF. Amtrak lists only MTR = Montreal, TWO = Toronto, and VAC = Vancouver, and a few others (NFS, OKL…) for Canadian stations. Does anyone have a list for all VIA/GO/etc. stations in Canada, if this system is used? I tried to ‘ticket-through’ to Truro, NS once. No-go!
Dunno what the “Dark Territory” rule is, but since the accident in South Carolina (or was it North), my BNSF scanner traffic is filled with confirmations that “all switches are lined and locked. Switch-position form is completed. All associated personnel and equipment are clear… Ad infinitum.” when Track Warrants are released. Better safe than…
As for a GP-30, I wouldn’t take one to an ‘ugly dog’ fight, even though it would win!
Bill Hays – Shelby, MT (I wonder if the e-mail address thingie is permissible.)
Just a thought: the State of New York/Amtrak/Super Steel have some recently-rebuilt, stored-servicable, Rohr “Turboliners” for sale. I’m sure the price will be right! They would be ‘just-the-ticket’ for Calgary-Edmonton service, if the highway crossing issue could be resolved. Big bucks, there, but, with Alberta’s outrageous gasoline taxes, anything is possible. I’ll bet some qualified turbo mechanics could be lured to Alberta, from Ontario and Quebec, if only to escape provincial sales taxes!
They could even be used in Calgary-Claresholm (with some track restoration) commuter service; Calgary-Lethbridge service (maybe with a connection to Shelby, MT (and Amtrak), via Coutts/Sweetgrass; or on the Medicine Hat-Crowsnest Pass (and beyond) route.
Of course, if the Canadian Border guys want $1,500 to inspect each train, the AB-MT thingie is out.
Bill Hays – Shelby, MT – where the gasoline is (relatively) cheap! (50-cents per gallon lower than Alberta! I wonder why…)
With the Alberta Govt. about to post record deficits due to the cratering of Natural Gas prices, don’t expect any RR transportation projects in the near future. They have been setting aside property in both Edmonton and Calgary for the future high speed train, but who knows when that will come to pass.
The big transportation news in Canada right now is Greyhound’s intention to discontinue bus service in Manitoba in 28 days and in Ontario west of Sudbury in 88 days. The respective Govt’s are scrambling to figure out a solution to that. Also Greyhound is saying the service in Alberta and Saskatchewan is under review and talks are underway with those Govt’s. There is another Federal election expected this fall and losing the only bus service in those areas is bound to have a negative impact on the current party in power.
I thought I was on top of transportation issue’s here but I was surprised, as I think a lot of people are, that Greyhound had been given monopoly rights on apparently profitable routes in the past, in exchange for providing service to more remote areas. Now it seems they want taxpayer funded subsidies as well.
VIA could also get sucked into this issue, as apparently train ridership increases in the Ontario portion of the Montreal-Windsor corridor have taken away profits from buses on that route that help subsidize the northern Ontario routes. And VIA had just been given infrastructure money earlier this year.
This is going to be some mess to sort out.
AgentKid
How did the Alberta government get into a defecit situation? I no longer get the Alberta Report, so I am way out-of-touch.
We had Greyhound/Trailways, d.b.a. Rimrock Trailways, service here until about six years ago. They pulled the plug on the Great Falls-Shelby (Amtrak)-Sweetgrass, MT bus and the connecting Canadian Greyhound at Coutts, AB to Calgary, etc… No surprise. The bus ran mostly empty, down here. It was not a guaranteed/dedicated Amtrak connection, which didn’t help. Montana has lost a lot more Greyhound lines since then.
Seems to me that the politicians in Quebec and Ontario don’t care about the rest of the country, except to collect the GST.
Bill Hays – Shelby, MT wdh@mcn.net
P. S.: I paid US$ 2.97 / gallon for gas in Claresholm, AB on 12 July. Gas, here, was US$ 2.63 on the same day. So much for Alberta’s “oil riches”.