I live in the Southern Tier of New York, about a half-mile from the former Erie main line, in house built in 1959. In a few weeks, my wife and I are scheduled to have our cellar waterproofed using something called the B-Dry system. As I understand it, they essentially cut a channel around the perimeter of your cellar floor and sheath the cellar walls with plastic, so that any water that gets into the cellar goes into the channel and out of the house. This is important because, even though we live on a hill, we still got some water in the cellar during the hurricanes last fall, which resulted in mold galore and the loss of a whole lot of lumber that was supposed to become the benchwork for my railroad. (We also got runoff in the cellar last spring; the people who sold us the house said they never got water in the house “except tiny amounts in one corner,” which apparently meant the side of the cellar that is supposed to be the home of my layout!) We aren’t going the DryLok route because a lot of the water seemed to come up through the floor, rather than seeping in through the walls.
I’ve been fine with this plan, because who wants standing water in their house? And, I’d like to get started on my layout while I’m still young and flexible enough to be able to do it. However, I’ve become concerned about the plan, for a couple reasons:
Friends have told me that B-Dry and similar systems increase humidity in the cellar. Humidity + railroad = bad combination.
The previous owner removed some, but not all, of the floor tiles, which (naturally) are asbestos. After talking with an asbestos removal company, I found out the glue also contains asbestos. [soapbox] The engineer at the asbestos company seemed to think it’s not a big deal, but I have concerns about asbestos particles floating around in our house after B-Dry jackhammers the channel in the floor, and causing mesothelioma som
What you describe is commonly called a French Drain. They are costly, but they do control water incursion. I think if water incursion is a problem, you are likely to have high basement ambient humidity no matter what, but you won’t have the actual standing/pooling water, and that is better than what you have now…apparently. Run a $150 dehumidfier until it gasps its last, and then replace it. They do a great job of keeping your basement under 60% humidity, which is ideal.
So, if you don’t have moldy wood now that is visible in your basement, I can’t see that a French Drain and sump is going to be worse.
As for asbestos, it is only the microfibers in the alveoli in one’s lungs that presents the high risk of mesothelioma. They only enter the lungs when breathed in while airborne, and they are only airborne when the asbestos textile is being disturbed somehow…vibration, friction, cutting, grinding…that kind of thing. If the glue is stable and not really exposed, you are safe. If the textile is accessible, exposed, and liable to be brushed or scrubbed, or knocked about, you have a serious and immediate problem.
The general rule is that if it is in a covered wrapping around heating piples, leave it be. If you must disturb the wrap during renovations or other repairs, call the experts to clean it up first, and be prepared to stay out of the home for the duration…maybe even a couple of over-nights.
Not that he needs it, but may I second Crandell’s posting…
Existing asbestoes, if covered or in tile form, is best left alone. It is harmless in this state, as it only causes harm if the miniscule particles are breathed in.
A damp basement is an MR’s worst enemy (been there twice). The French drain is a major help, and the fact that it took a hurricane to flood you is an indication your problem is not normal.
In addition to the drain, I would also plug in that dehumidifier, install a sump pump, and cover the walls/floors with a good sealer (UGL?).
Not sure how installing a drain system can make the humidity worse than actually having standing water there - I think you’ll be OK. Just make sure you’re using a reputable contractor and make sure any claims are backed by some sort of guarantee.
Asbestos is a serious thing, but allt hese lawsuit mill ads they run on TV have blown it WAY out of proportion. It’s way worse to start tearing it up then to just leave it be, sealed in. It’s also not liekly that asbestos fibers would be released even by jackhammering around the floor - the glue encapsulates it in larger particles (that still wouldn;t be good to breath, for sure - but neither is plain concrete dust), so you don;t have the fibers you’d have by tearing apart somethign like a furnace flue wrapper.
I have a good friend who had a “french drain” installed in his basement after a catastrophic flood that ruined layout and some of what was stored below. The floor was then cemented and tiled. After ten plus years the layout is rebuilt, train items are stored off the floor (just in case) but no more water in the basement. During my many visits I have never found the basement to be overly humid and no humidity issues have been observed or reported.
As for the asbestos, I agree with the posts that basically say, if you leave it alone it will leave you alone.
While undisturbed asbestos is best left undisturbed and is likely safe, I think that jack hammering the floor has the potential to create dust containing asbestos (I’m not sure the glue is enough of an encapsulation). Why not get a couple of quotes on removing the material where they will be jack hammering the floor. I would also alert any company that will create the drain to the potential problem of the asbestos. I assume they are applying a dimpled plastic sheeting to the walls to direct the water to the drain and thus sump pump. As there is a layer of concrete over the gravel in the drain, I don’t see why it would increase humidity (but a good de-humidifier is recommended).
Is this system channeling the water to a sump or carrying out through a drain? If most of the water is permeating up through the floor, the water table or higher runnoff is surrounding the basement. Just to “pipe” the water out of the foundation/ footing usually is not enough unless the pipe can carry water pitched to a lower level. The use of perforated pipe within the gravel channel divering all water to one pitched area w/ a sump is the only solution. Extreme high water table around the foundation can only get worse if you “Punch a Hole in The bottom of the Concrete Boat”. I have seen on many occasions where exterior perimeter drainage system of gravel (french Drain) has caused increased water conditions over a sealed concrete wall and good soil compaction. If the water issues are higher runnoff or high periodic water table, Running a sump and sealing the walls/floor is the only solution. Just make sure that this contractor will guarantee a dry basement. There are many conditions and variables, I haven’t seen the site or know the soil or topography, hopefully this system will do the job for you.
Your conditions in NY shouldn’t be that much different from that here in Mass.
Also don’t forget downspout/ gutter runoff and proper pitch of gutters to divert away from house.
Another thing to consider is a dehumidifier and condensate pump to pump the condensate from the dehumidifier out the cellar. That way you do not have the empty the bucket. If you whole house air, then not a problem. Both came from Home Depot. I have been doing that for some years. In the summer, I keep an oscillating fan on low sitting on the floor to keep air moving. I have a temp/hygrometer about twelve inches from the floor to monitor the humidity. Some years ago I had a lot of HO track put down on Homasote that buckled a lot. I will not use Homasote anymore.
As noted by bogp40, it is difficult to give the best advice without being informed about all the conditions; however, allow me a few observations/suggestions:
• I agree with Doc about the asbestos.
• If most of the water enters via the floor, why the wall plastic? If the wall has isolated locations that are penetrated by water, these can be corrected by either patching from the exterior, if accessible, or from the interior with hydraulic cement. If the wall is only slightly damp (could also be interior condensation of moisture vapor on a cool surface), the DryLok system could work.
• I don’t believe that the OP said anything about a gravel drain covered with concrete, but just an open drainage channel cut into the floor (not a “French Drain”), presumably around the perimeter and presumably connected to a sump pump.
• I also agree with bogp40 about checking rain-runoff conditions, including sloping the ground away from the walls.
• If the asbestos issue proves to be very expensive, consider the following in lieu of tile removal, wall plastic, drainage channels and a sump pump: cover the existing floor with a drainage layer of washed gravel; cover the gravel with a 6-mil vapor barrier and pour a new concrete floor over the vapor barrier. This will work if the drainage layer serves a floor drain, which I assume exists somewhere. I did this in our old house, and it worked like a charm!
• I live in south-central PA. Our area suffered the same 2 storms that hit the OP. The ground was already fairly heavily soaked, and those storms saturated the ground to the point that lawns were partially covered with free water. Many basements suffered flooding for the first time; therefore, it is entirely possible that the previous owners were telling the truth about their experience.
Thanks for assuaging some of my concerns, guys. We have a dehumidifier that’s been running since we moved in about a year and a half ago. And yes, the system involves dimpled plastic to direct the water down to the channel. There’s a new sump and pit involved, too. So you’re probably right, it should keep water out. I’ve been worried because friends said the drain will allow more damp air into the room.
As for the asbestos, there’s no way to avoid removing the tiles. The previous owner (a contractor, may I add) put up studs around the cellar to divde it into two 10’ by 30’ rooms. While he removed part of the tiles, he left the bulk of them behind – including along one of the 30’ long walls. Making it better was that he nailed the 2x4 footers to the floor THROUGH THE TILES. Like I said, I contacted the local asbestos removal company, and their engineer told me to run water into the cellar and let it sit on the tiles, then lift them up with an ice scraper and toss them. The water helps keep dust down for that part, but I’m worried about when they start jackhammering downstairs. (The asbestos company said they wouldn’t even come out to look things over because this isn’t as big of a deal as having asbestos cloth around pipes, etc., and tiles aren’t a big deal)
My sister in law installed a similar system to what you are proposing in a house with a very damp and moldy basement and it seemed to work very well. I was very sceptical because the basement was definitely wet and smelly before hand. After the system was installed, and after a good cleaning it stayed quite fresh. When the basement was finished there were no susequent problems. They did maintain a dehumidifier. I think the trick is to get rid of the water that comes in as quickly as possible.
Someone has already suggested making sure that the ground around your foundation slopes away from the house. I would suggest that you look at one other thing if you haven’t already and that is your eavestroughs and downspouts. If your downspouts drain below ground then you are basically flooding your foundation drainage tiles every time it rains. If your eaves constantly overflow that water is being dumped right beside the foundation. You should have 5" eaves with 3" x 3" downspouts a maximum of one downspout for every 50’ of eaves. Extend the downspouts so the water is emptying at least 4’ from the house and flowing away from the house. Sometimes easier said than done.
I live in the SOuthern Tier of NY and we are fortunate on two things: one we don’t have a basement, and two: we live high and dry.BUT; houses around our trailer park who DO have basements did have sump pump problems when the power went out for 5 1/2 days.
BDry system is basically a french drain, and the sump will pump it out {as long as you have power to it- someone on the news mentioned adding a sump after the flooding in September '11 with a battery back up. If you don’t have a generator to power the sump, {{and even if you do}} I would look into this battery back up plan. A battery may not help after it gets drained of juice, but can be charged bythe generator.}. wiht the BDRY system you shouldn’t have too much more humidity problems, I wouldn’t think.
Ideally the sump should be “sealed” and the wall of dimple plastic should aslo be “sealed” and will save you from water creeping in the walls. What concerns me is that you say you have water seepage up through the floor…that means a higher water table, on a hill or not.
The ones you should ask about raising the humidity level is the BDRY systems operator! They should be able to tell you.
I would still run a dehumidifier in each of the 10x30 rooms {at least 2 dehumidifiers} and another one in any area of the basement left over. Just because I live * above ground* doesn’t mean we don’t get moisture seepage through the floor of the trailer form the damp stone covered ground below. About 8 months out of the year we run a dehumifier and it draws out a full bucket of 50 pints a day! Yours can be fed, I am sure, into your new sumppump pit so you don’t have to empty the darn bucket{s} every day. My father’s ranch house has two dehumifiers running in an open basemnt with just one room closed off {with the 2nd DHer in the room and door open}, and while a dry basement, he has to empty the buckets once a day. He has no sump and shouldn’t need it as no water comes up from the open floor drain.<
After all the construction mayhem, consider using steel studs for your benchwork and foam for your subroadbed. These materials aren’t going to absorb water and warp if the humidity proves to be a problem in the basement.
A dehumidifier takes the water out, but in the process the unit runs hot, and will add heat to the basement. In most cases, a warm basement is preferable, but if it gets very warm in the summer you might consider installing an air conditioner as well. Run the AC in the summer, and it will take the humidity and the heat and dump it outside. Be aware that both AC and dehumidifiers are power-hungry devices that will run up your electric bill.
A drain won’t add humidity unless it allows water to sit, rather than draining properly. I assume anyone in this biz knows they need to end up with drainage, not pooling.
I doubt they’ll use jackhammers, except for certain specific needs where nothing else will work. Most likely, they’ll cut the channel with a diamond-bladed concrete saw.
The dehumidfier will still be needed, but with better drainage should lower the humidity after the project is done. But I agree with those who’ve mentioned central air. I don’t need the dehumidfier here nearly so much since installing central air. If you plan additional lighting for the layout, you’ll end up wanting more cooling anyway, another reason to consider it.
As for asbestos, easiest thing to do is encapsulate it. Freezing them with water on sounds intriguing – and easy – but not sure you really want to let your basement freeze. I assume there are pipes, etc in there you won’t want frozen. Best thing to do would be to just go over the existing tiles, unless they’re coming loose and won’t provide a fixed surface to bond the new flooring to. Obviously, you don’t want to finalize that until you see how much the improvements lower the moisture problem, as that will affect your flooring choices.
I live in a similarly typically damp basement area. What I did was shop for a dry basement for the layout – you can tell by the smell far better than by appearance or what someone says about the water issues they’ve had. Too late for that for you, but I think you’ll be better off with more drainage provided by this project.
I’ve been living with water in the basement issues for years. First house we lived in here in CT, the water table used to come up above the level of the basement floor every spring, so that the sump acted like a spring. That wasn’t fun. No layout in that basement!
Current one is better – and has been mostly fixed, but still has some issues. Dehumidifier runs constantly, and anything that prevents runoff from moving away from the house (snow, for instance) will still send water into the basement through the casement window.
Humidity is water in the air. Since cool air sinks, air from your house is constantly sinking into your basement, bringing humidity (from showers, dishwashers, etc) with it. It’s worse if you don’t have AC, because then the outside humidity will also add to the problem, but a dehumidifier can stay on top of this. If you have liquid water coming into your basement from somewhere, this will add to the problem, but here’s the trick – liquid water adds to humidity by evaporating into the air. A small, 2-3 square foot sump, even if constantly full of water, doesn’t allow nearly as much evaporation (which is a function of temperature and surface area) as a large pool of water 1/8" deep.
The french drain – even if it leads to an open sump – will greatly reduce the humidity in your basement. It’s a good investment.
HOWEVER – the asbestos is an issue. To avoid liability, you MUST tell the waterproofing contractor about the asbestos. He may require you to get the abatement done before he will install the drain. The last thing you want, though, is the legal liability of having him discover that there is asbestos in your basement after he’s been digging in it for a couple of days.
The contractor knows there’s asbestos in the cellar. I told them I suspected the floor tiles contain asbestos when they cam out to the house to give us an estimate. That’s what prompted my call to the asbestos company, whch told me it’s a do-it-yourself job (as I mentioned before).
I went out and bought an asbestos-rated respirator and gloves, and took to the cellar this afternoon. All but about a 5’x9’ patch in the middle of the cellar is up (I would’ve finished the job, but I ran out of bags). I put down a ton of water, just to be safe, and added a few buckets full to compensate for evaporation and runoff into the existing sump well. I showered as soon as I was done.
I know that we need to add at least one downspout to help move water more efficiently. I also plan to angle the ground that abuts the exterior cellar wall to improve runoff away from the house. These were things my parents did at their house, but they still got water in the cellar sometimes (though less often than before the work was done).
Last, since we’ve been discussing their service, here’s the waterproofers’ website so you can see what this is:
It looks like they know how to clear up seepage or water intrusion due to high water tables, improper grading and perimeter drainage. That is good. I doubt they can control humidity, though, and they say as much near the bottom of their method/system description.
Humidity will find its way through surfaces that are porouse and not protected on the outside by a vapour barrier. In many places, the perimeter of the house is dug up down to the weeping tiles/perimter drainage at the footings, and the walls are pressure washed to get them clean. When they dry, they bolt a plastic heavy-duty sheet, often waffled, directly to the walls using a ram-set. The walls can even be painted first with a thick tarry sealant.
Once they backfill, they should take a look at the drainage built into your window wells if you have them. They are notorious for allowing water intrusion.
When I moved into my new unfinished basement with the house on top I noted during the showing that the basement felt damp and had that musty smell. A quick check of the house showed that the gutters were clogged and had been for sometime causing the rain to run off the roof and settle at the house foundation. One side of the house had the grading where the the water ran from the backyard to the side yard and to the house. The ground level was actually higher than the siding level at this spot. Since the house is two stories and three stories where the basement walk out is I had those helmeted clog proof gutters installed, changed out a clogged underground drainage pipe and reworked the grade. After removing the rotted siding I put drainage gravel around the house and for the past six years the basement has been dry and pleasant. It took several years for me to start the basement finishing process and I just completed it this past year.
It may take some money and time to get it right but once done it will be well worth it. I think the more appealing and comfortable the location the more you will want to spend time there.
My problem was water coming up through the floor even though the concrete was sealed (sealed several times in fact). Every time I scraped, sealed, oil-based primer, and oil-based painted the floor it would peel or bubble up with water visible.
I finally used epoxy garage paint and the problem has vanished. It’s as if the epoxy is like a giant sheet and if it still “bubbles up”, I can’t see it. Someone told me to not use epoxy paint in my basement but it worked. On subsequent areas I skipped the roller and just dumped the gallon. Took a week to cure, but worked even better.
(I also have a dehumidifier, buried downspouts, and painted benchwork.)