Thanks and you’re right. It was the RPO car itself that left the Midnight in '70 I believe.
I stand corrected, and sit comfortably.
Mitch
Thanks and you’re right. It was the RPO car itself that left the Midnight in '70 I believe.
I stand corrected, and sit comfortably.
Mitch
Didn’t the Gateway Western have a problem with their bridge over the Missouri River, near Mexico, MO?
(1) As for what happened to the bridge over the Mississippi, the biggest flood of the last 200 years happened, and it litterally took the bridge with it.
(2) Primarily to Greyhounds, but anyone else who might be able to contribute:
I guess you are saying a Alton Route Regional would not work today? I believe you, (sigh) but I was kind of hoping it could be a Wisconsin Central like regional, I know it is connected to many industrial areas.
I knew its 300 mile route made intermodal a questionable proposition, but . . . . Alas.
Gabe
Back in the 1980’s when I was working in flour milling, we received a CMNW boxcr for sacked loading. We mistakenly took it for a CNW car, wrote CNW on all the paperwork. Talk about starting a billing error mess. Actually this was quite common w/shippers as they were doing the same. I never knew what this CMNW was until readinga issue of Trains a few yrs back.
The CMNW ran Joliet-St Louis, Kansas City-Roodhouse-St Louis, and Roodhouse-Jacksonville-Springfield-Chicago. Amtrak at one time considered rerouting it’s trains Chicago-Champaign-Tolono-Decatur-St Louis due to poor track conditions. The SP eventually bought the main link between St Louis and Joliet, the Gateway Western took the rest. This was the only SP owned line directly to Chicago, however the SP also had trackage rights over the BN from KC thru Quincy, Il to Chicago
QUOTE: Originally posted by gabe
(1) As for what happened to the bridge over the Mississippi, the biggest flood of the last 200 years happened, and it litterally took the bridge with it.
(2) Primarily to Greyhounds, but anyone else who might be able to contribute:
I guess you are saying a Alton Route Regional would not work today? I believe you, (sigh) but I was kind of hoping it could be a Wisconsin Central like regional, I know it is connected to many industrial areas.
I knew its 300 mile route made intermodal a questionable proposition, but . . . . Alas.
Gabe
Well, look at the cities on the route.
Pontiac and Dwight are prison towns. Pontiac has an Illinois maximum security facility, Dwight has the Illinois Prison for Women. Bloomington-Normal is a university town (Illinois State) with a failing auto plant on another rail line. Springfield (State Capital) is chock full ‘O politicains and little else. They think the way to solve a budget crunch is to not fund the state’s pension plan. Ain’t gonna’ work - what are they goning to do next year? I’d hate to be counting on a pension from Illinois right now.
Little freight to haul in or out. South of Springfield the line has replaced the old C&NW route to St. Louis, so things are OK.
(Ever hear of the “Monkey Girls”, the women in Sprinfield who hang on to their jobs with their tails.) I was riding an excursion over the C&IM years ago. On the way to my hotel in Springfield the cab driver solicited me for a “for hire” woman. I’ve never had that happen anywhere else. (I did decline the offer.)
The line does cut through some of the best farm land in the world. (McLean County). But it’s within trucking distance of the Illinois River barges. Even if they do get unit trains to the Gulf, they’ve only got them for 150 miles or so.
I fought that intermodal thingy for years. I was in inte
Traffic isn’t dead but not jumping either.
Major source of traffic is the Cargill bean plant in Bloomington. ICG killed this traffic off(It was Purina back then) CMNW tried to revive and SP got it going. Good steady traffic there though. Elevators in Cayuga and pontaic ship unit trains of grain(not sure how often), couple of elevators south of bloomington ship grain. Lincoln has a cardboard plant and glass plant that both get service daily. Add a place in Carlinville that gets steel and Midstates warehouse in Springfield that gets Potash unit trains. So south of Bloomington the GMO is not dead, but north of bloomington is lala land.
IMO there was an unpatched SP GP60 and GE B23-7 that I think got patched running the local. The best thing would be if UP trains down the line from LPC in Joliet(doubt it with Global III) But with a connection off the BNSF at Edelstein in the works the exGMO south of Springfield will get busier
The KCS exGWWR line to KC(The line the GMO never wanted by the way) has a fair amount of traffic too. KCS and CN were trying to run auto parts trains but UP and NS nixed that idea
This site has some great pics;
http://skipg.homeip.net/gallery/CMW?page=1
Check out the track in this one
http://skipg.homeip.net/gallery/album127/AMTK_1442
Last thing is I also heard they are adding another Amtrak train in the morning
The industry in Jacksonville is Pactiv (exMobil Chemical) the get plastic granules around eight more or less a day; I have only chased it two times. Back in the GMo days jacksonville handled alot of LCL.
Anybody remember the SP intermodal trains that came through in early 90’s?
It was fun to see pix of the CM&W units on the link above. I enjoyed creating that color scheme. The CM&W insignia started as an in-house joke. It’s a knock-off of the CA&E insignia. I contacted the GM&O Historical Society to get the formula for the maroon color. The red stripe was Scotchlite stock cut in the pattern of the South Shore Line’s stripe that I designed. I borrowed that same stripe design, and altered it, from one that I created for the last Milwaukee Road scheme. The numberboards were of the same stock and typeface as Milwaukee Road’s as I felt it was a modern, yet styled, face. Easy to read as it’s white numerals on a black background.
Mitch
The Kansas City line had some freight, but it also still had 90 pound rail and had been beaten into the ground as the ICG ran unit coal trains over the 90 pound rail.
The Alton Route then passed rapidly among owners, Union Pacific, B&O, GM&O, ICG, CM&W. The Chicago-St. Louis line is now back with the UP and once again, they don’t seem to want it.
SP getting all of the CM&W, would have certainly made avoiding St. Louis via Springfield a bonus. Upgrading the KC line could have gave ATSF, a run for its money. Today UP doesn’t care to route LA-CHI IM traffic through TRRA, due to cost. So up the old Rock from KCMO, via Nevada IA, or ATSF, trackage rights has to do.
greyhounds
The Kansas City line had some freight, but it also still had 90 pound rail and had been beaten into the ground as the ICG ran unit coal trains over the 90 pound rail.
The Alton Route then passed rapidly among owners, Union Pacific, B&O, GM&O, ICG, CM&W. The Chicago-St. Louis line is now back with the UP and once again, they don’t seem to want it.
SP getting all of the CM&W, would have certainly made avoiding St. Louis via Springfield a bonus. Upgrading the KC line could have gave ATSF, a run for its money. Today UP doesn’t care to route LA-CHI IM traffic through TRRA, due to cost. So up the old Rock from KCMO, via Nevada IA, or ATSF, trackage rights has to do.
The northbound intermodals go via the old MP via Omaha. The southbounds go via Des Moines. Currently there’s only one pair of trains on these routes. Recently they were changed from I to Z status.
Most intermodals go via the exATSF.
Jeff
SD60MAC9500
greyhounds
The Kansas City line had some freight, but it also still had 90 pound rail and had been beaten into the ground as the ICG ran unit coal trains over the 90 pound rail.
The Alton Route then passed rapidly among owners, Union Pacific, B&O, GM&O, ICG, CM&W. The Chicago-St. Louis line is now back with the UP and once again, they don’t seem to want it.
SP getting all of the CM&W, would have certainly made avoiding St. Louis via Springfield a bonus. Upgrading the KC line could have gave ATSF, a run for its money. Today UP doesn’t care to route LA-CHI IM traffic through TRRA, due to cost. So up the old Rock from KCMO, via Nevada IA, or ATSF, trackage rights has to do.
The northbound intermodals go via the old MP via Omaha. The southbounds go via Des Moines. Currently there’s only one pair of trains on these routes. Recently they were changed from I to Z status.
Most intermodals go via the exATSF.
Jeff
Thanks Jeff, what’s the impetus for sending EB north up the ex-MP, to Omaha? An WB south via Des Moines?
greyhounds
The Kansas City line had some freight, but it also still had 90 pound rail and had been beaten into the ground as the ICG ran unit coal trains over the 90 pound rail.
The Alton Route then passed rapidly among owners, Union Pacific, B&O, GM&O, ICG, CM&W. The Chicago-St. Louis line is now back with the UP and once again, they don’t seem to want it.
SP getting all of the CM&W, would have certainly made avoiding St. Louis via Springfield a bonus. Upgrading the KC line could have gave ATSF, a run for its money. Today UP doesn’t care to route LA-CHI IM traffic through TRRA, due to cost. So up the old Rock from KCMO, via Nevada IA, or ATSF, trackage rights has to do.
The CM&W was a complete wreck by the time it went under. And the KC line was the worst part of that very dilapidated railroad. The KC line trackage was so bad that the CM&W had to use trackage rights on the BN’s Beardstown Sub to get between Springfield and Jacksonville via Girard, IL in order to maintain access to a large plastics plant in Jacksonville. The SP barely had the money to rehab the Joliet-Venice line, let alone take on the KC line too. And even rehabbed, that line never would have been competitive against the Transcon. Single track, short sidings, no CTC, two very slow river crossings, hill and dale profile - that line was never going to be a racetrack no matter how much ballast, ties, and 136 lb welded rail got plunked down by the SP. SP had their shot at it and decided to get trackage rights over the BN from KC into Chicago right after they spun up th
[quote user=“SD60MAC9500”]
jeffhergert
SD60MAC9500
greyhounds
The Kansas City line had some freight, but it also still had 90 pound rail and had been beaten into the ground as the ICG ran unit coal trains over the 90 pound rail.
The Alton Route then passed rapidly among owners, Union Pacific, B&O, GM&O, ICG, CM&W. The Chicago-St. Louis line is now back with the UP and once again, they don’t seem to want it.
SP getting all of the CM&W, would have certainly made avoiding St. Louis via Springfield a bonus. Upgrading the KC line could have gave ATSF, a run for its money. Today UP doesn’t care to route LA-CHI IM traffic through TRRA, due to cost. So up the old Rock from KCMO, via Nevada IA, or ATSF, trackage rights has to do.
The northbound intermodals go via the old MP via Omaha. The southbounds go via Des Moines. Currently there’s only one pair of trains on these routes. Recently they were changed from I to Z status.
Most intermodals go via the exATSF.
Jeff
Thanks Jeff, what’s the impetus for sending EB north up the ex-MP, to Omaha? An WB south via Des Moines?<
Directional running on almost all traffic.
That whole theory on the part of UP management just throws me for a loop. I understand they are trying to save the immense costs of double tracking an existing line on one hand.
On the other hand, I suspect the reason they hold onto the duplicate lines miles and miles apart is basically an anti-competitive move to maintain market dominance.
jeffhergert
Directional running on almost all traffic.That whole theory on the part of UP management just throws me for a loop. I understand they are trying to save the immense costs of double tracking an existing line on one hand.
On the other hand, I suspect the reason they hold onto the duplicate lines miles and miles apart is basically an anti-competitive move to maintain market dominance.
Does the line fit seamlessly with BNSF’s route structure? Why spend the capital to double track one line when you already possess another line that effectively creates a double track railroad between the O-D points. Not using the line would breach UP’s fiduciary responsibility.
[quote user=“ns145”]
SD60MAC9500
greyhounds
The Kansas City line had some freight, but it also still had 90 pound rail and had been beaten into the ground as the ICG ran unit coal trains over the 90 pound rail.
The Alton Route then passed rapidly among owners, Union Pacific, B&O, GM&O, ICG, CM&W. The Chicago-St. Louis line is now back with the UP and once again, they don’t seem to want it.
SP getting all of the CM&W, would have certainly made avoiding St. Louis via Springfield a bonus. Upgrading the KC line could have gave ATSF, a run for its money. Today UP doesn’t care to route LA-CHI IM traffic through TRRA, due to cost. So up the old Rock from KCMO, via Nevada IA, or ATSF, trackage rights has to do.
The CM&W was a complete wreck by the time it went under. And the KC line was the worst part of that very dilapidated railroad. The KC line trackage was so bad that the CM&W had to use trackage rights on the BN’s Beardstown Sub to get between Springfield and Jacksonville via Girard, IL in order to maintain access to a large plastics plant in Jacksonville. The SP barely had the money to rehab the Joliet-Venice line, let alone take on the KC line too. And even rehabbed, that line never would have been competitive against the Transcon. Single track, short sidings, no CTC, two very slow river crossings, hill and dale profile - that line was never going to
Right before UP started implementing PSR they were on the cusp of starting to run G4-West Coast stack trains between Joliet and Kansas City via Springfield and NS’ ex-Wabash line. There were rumors that at least one pair of Z trains running on the Transcon were going to be moved to the new routing too. The primary drivers were reducing mileage to the West Coast, reducing dependance on arch-rival BNSF, and eliminating the fees for crossing the Mississippi at St. Louis via the TRRA. Traffic congestion on the ex-MP route was also a consideration, but with coal volumes dropping like a rock at the time that became less of a concern. After putting in all the effort to setup trackage rights and crew agreements, including an inspection trip by UP’s OCS train, they pulled the plug on the whole project.
There’s no real mystery about why UP holds onto lines that they aren’t using very much (or not using at all). The reason is that, as a practical matter, once a line is gone, it’s gone for good. If there’s any reason to believe that a currently underutilized line might be valuable in the future, the correct strategy is to “discontinue service” but hold onto it, even if you have no current plans to operate it. If you dispose of a line and later try to reacquire and resurrect it, you run into a blizzard of envirnomental and other requirements that can easily defeat the project or make it enormously expensive. But, if you just discontinue service on it but hold onto it, you can resurrect it essentially at will, without jumping through any of these hoops.
UP adopted this strategy after service issues it exerienced in implementing the UP-SP merger. As I recall UP’s past CEO (Lance Fritz) explained this at a “Sandhouse Gang” presentation at Northwestern University a few years ago. Tennessee Pass is probably the example that’s most visible to the railfan community.
…
UP adopted this strategy after service issues it exerienced in implementing the UP-SP merger. As I recall UP’s past CEO (Lance Fritz) explained this at a “Sandhouse Gang” presentation at Northwestern University a few years ago. Tennessee Pass is probably the example that’s most visible to the railfan community.
Did Mr. Fritz explain why they sold off the ex-MP connection east of Pueblo to the A&K scrappers, pressuming UP wanted to save the Tennessee Pass line?