Cincinnati subway plan resurfaces

Trains Magazine General Discussion
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Subway plan resurfaces
City study to take another look at abandoned tunnels
BY GREGORY KORTE | ENQUIRER STAFF WRITER

A city study due by the end of the year could decide - after a century of planning, construction and long periods of neglect - the future of Cincinnati’s abandoned subway tunnels.

The Cincinnati Department of Transportation & Engineering wants to know how much the 80-year-old tunnels are worth, the cost to bring them up to today’s building codes and the feasibility of using them for a modern subway system. The city also is looking at extending the system south to Third Street.

If that doesn’t work, one option is to abandon the tubes and stations and fill them in, according to the city’s request to potential consultants for the study.
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Rich in local history and folklore, the tunnels are perhaps the most notorious public project ever undertaken in the city. Voters approved a $6.1 million bond issue in 1916 for the project (about $111 million in today’s dollars), but the plan crumbled under the combined weight of political squabbling, corruption, the dawn of the automotive age and the Depression.

The city’s renewed interest in the subway comes less than four years after Hamilton County rejected - by more than a 2-to-1 ratio - a half-cent sales tax to help fund a proposed $2.7 billion regional light rail plan.

The vote was so decisive that the federal government forced the Ohio-Kentucky-Indiana Regional Council of Governments to take light rail out of the region’s long-range transportation plan.

But the 2.2-mile-long twin tunnels, built between 1920 and 1925, still sit silently under Central Parkway, and city officials say it’s time to assess whether they have any potential.

“We really need to figure out what’s the future of them,” City Architect Michael R. Moore said. "If they’re not in dire shape and not going to become a liability, we don’t want to close the d

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As far as OKI goes that is a bunch of do nothings. Alot of the reason that the levy failed is because they wanted to build the most expensive part first, the line to Blue Ash. Remember the millions that were to be spent on the big tunnel under the University of Cincinnati. This was going to be very expensive. Why didn’t they build on existing lines first. Maks more sense to me. Prove the worth of light rail first.
As far as the old subway goes the city is not going to spend any money on them. It’s a waste of time and money to think light rail will use it anytime. There is no population along the route. The population started leaving in the 1920’s and 30’s. All the business is down below 5th street, 7 or 8 blocks south. Nobodies going to walk that. I guess thats why they came up with the big idea to put street cars back on the streets. Good thinking there OKI. More wasted money. The 3rd street area is down on Eggleston Ave. and there is not much in the way of passingers, unless they bus them there.
The other end comes out next to I-75 and has no room to run along the highway. The original ROW for the subway system is now I-75 to Norwood Laterial to I-71 and then south to make a loop around the city. Remember that I-75 is getting widened soon there adding a lane all the way to I-275.
So I really see nothing happening here but more lip service.
Maybe some day the subway tunnels might get used for something but I really don’t see them used for light rail anytime soon, probably never.

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I read the Enquirer story too and have to agree with the little chance thought put forward by Cheviot Hill.

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CheviotHill : Take a look at the 1948 “static” plan for Cincy vs. the Dynamic plans that happened since. Your dislike for OKI is well placed and paints a lesson about what happens when politics injects itself in the planning process. (And makes you wonder if the current bunch of planners have any brain cells left functioning)

Our UC Highway Engineering and Transportation Engineering classes in the Civil Engineering program would spend a day each spring on field trips to CUT, the trolley barns on Spring Grove Ave and to the subway on Central Parkway near the old Schoenling Brewery to expose us to what worked and what did not. Agree that where the subways were to go now would be a futile effort. Cincinnati & Pittsburgh’s geography would make any rail transit system a poor choice.

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Mudchicken I’ll do that, thanks. I may have been alittle harsh in saying their do nothings. I really wi***hat they (OKI) would of tried to use existing rail lines in the first phase. If your familar with the layout you know what I mean. OKI has bought alot of abandoned ROW. I’m not sure if even any other plans would of worked or not with the voters of Cincinnati, but I would have done the least expensive phase first. Show the value of light rail to a city that drives to downtown in droves. They tried to develope the plans, which included bus transportation hubs. I think maybe park and ride rail stations would have been better. I could go on about the subject but it gives me a headache.
Check out Railroads of Cincinnati web site at http://www.k8dti.com for info and pictures. To look at the subway and stations go to http://www.cincinnati-transit.net/ Sorry for the confusion, I kept entering the wrong site.

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Hi Cheviot Hill,

I too think the Cincinnati-Columbus-Cleveland high speed would be great but don’t hold much hope because to really make it viable would require a new right of way for the service. Upgrading the existing lines would result in travel times which would be essentially about the same as an automobile on I-71. At least that would be the case between Cincinnati and Columbus since the primary line runs via Dayton. The next issue is once you get to any of the cities you will likely still have to find a way to your destination by car.

Additionally I don’t think the will is present in Ohio for passenger rail transportation, especially commuter. I-71 is being widened between Columbus and Cleveland and it will create major headaches. A proposal to put commuter trains in which would parallel the highway on a temporary basis died. A similar attempt to have commuter operations between Cleveland and Akron-Canton paralleling I-77 failed for a similar lack of interest. Traveling into Cleveland from
Akron/Canton in the rush hour can take between 45 minutes and an hour of stop and go on I-77 every weekday morning and the same going home at night.

A shame.

Dale

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I find it mind boggling a city would spend the money in 1925 to build tunnels, stations, overpasses and grade roadway and then say theres no money for track, cars and electrical gear?[?] The money ran out 4 years before the crash of '29.That’s just crazy!!! And then build a road on top of it so you have to maintian it structually for 80 years. I am confused and amazed!! As always ENJOY[2c]

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It’s hardly the only hole in the ground in Cincy that never got finished.

rrandb: Change in political leadership and change in demographics had much to do with the issue. Cincy went from a densely packed urban area to scattered to the burbs during the same period courtesy the automobile boom, streetcar retrenchment, industry moving up the Mill Creek Valley and the electric trolley bus. After 4 separate tweeks and modifications, the great depression killed it off.

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Welcome to Cincinnati rrandb!!
We’ve got a new dinosaur. It’s the new Cincinnati Transit Center. It’s located under 2nd street. About the only thing that uses it is school buses for The Underground Freedom Center which is operating in the red. They lost 5 million last year. There is some talk again about developing the riverfront again. There is alot of government envolvement in this so you know what is going to happen with it.
The Transit center was built for duel usage for bus and rail. The levy that fail all but killed this place. Only time and $$ will tell.

Dale, I couldn’t agree more with you about high speed trains not happening anytime soon along the I-71 corridor. I think if anything Amtrack might add some trains in the Cleveland, Columbus and Cincinnati corridor. I don’t know how viable it would be for Amtrack to run them. We as a state, just like everywhere else, is hooked on the automobile. So until we get really high gas prices, I don’t see much changing the public opinion of paying for rail improvements.

Mudchicken did you say you’ve been inside the subway tunnels? I’ve been trying for some time now to take a tour. I’d love to go down and check it out.

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Ya know… I love you naysayers who think there will never be high speed trains in the I-71 Corridor, and that (somehow) Amtrak will magically begin to run trains back through Central and Southern Ohio. Wake up.

Amtrak is prohibited by Congressional mandate from adding any new routes to it’s system, unless it is an extenstion of an existing route … and only then if a state kicks in funding for it. The State of Ohio has not and will not kick in such funding, largely because of what it will get us in return: more trains that roll through in the middle of the night or (as in Cincy’s case) every other day in opposite directions. Ohio has been nothing more than a “flyover” state for Amtrak since its beginnings and there is no way that will change unless Congress and the Bush Administration will stop haggling and do what they should have done decades ago… fund Amtrak at an adequate and long-term level, and amend it’s charter to allow it to develop new services.

In the meantime, the Ohio Rail Development Commission’s Ohio Hub Plan will virtually reconnect almost all of Ohio’s major and medium-sized cities with high-speed (80 to 110 mph) trains. They are a lot farther along with this plan than anyone thinks. If our beloved reps in the Federal government will got off their collective behinds and pass a bill to establish a federal funding plan for rail infrastructure, the Ohio Hub Plan can probably get into initial construction within a couple of years. And this would create 6 to 8 trains per day originating in and serving eight different corridors within Ohio and connecting to major cities outside of the state.

I’m not a betting man, but I’d rather put my money on ORDC’s horse in this race.

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I live in the eastern part of the state and won’t be seeing any of that if it happens. I really would like to see it happen but I must remain in the highly skeptical group.
While 80-110 looks good you have to figure the end point average speed and it will be much less than that plus the issue of getting to and from trains at the endpoint. Look where most of the businesses are located in relation to the railroad terminals.

Hope your right and I’m wrong.

Dale

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Noozer, I didn’t say that there will never be high speed trains in Ohio. I just don’t think they will be running any time soon. I would love to see them run. Amtrack was going to split off of the Lake Shore Limited to run from Cleveland to Cincinnati via Columbus. What happened? There is an election year coming up. The politicians are going to bring out the old playbooks on rail travel again. I’m just getting tired of the lip service. If there is a need for it lets build it and build it right. If there is not a need, let’s put it to rest for for awhile.
The Ohio Hub Plan would be great, I really mean that. I would ride it from time to time, I know my brother would. He’s very excited about it. As for me I’m a little apprehensive about it. I just don’t think there is the ridership that is needed to keep it going. If this is put in front of the voters, it’s DOA.