Southern - Harriman - Tennesee Central
Southern - Chattanooga - NC&StL
Right on! Back to you.
I could not help but respond immediately to your previous question, even though I have no publications with classical information here–so I tried to think of a somewhat obscure matter which, as it was, might have been mentioned sometime back.
I had to go dig a bit because I assumed initially that there was an L&N routing.
Of the five railroads that operated Chicago-style gallery commuter cars in the 1950s and 1960s, only these two never operated them behind steam in regular service.
Rob:
Are you looking for the CBQ and RI? Are the five roads the: CBQ, RI, MILW, CNW, and IC?
Ed Burns
RI is one of the two, barely meeting our 50 year mark. IC didn’t get its Highliners until 1970. Still need the second non-steam user and the fifth operator.
Of the ones Ed named, CB&Q, RI and MILW cars came from Budd, C&NW’s were a mix of StLCC and Pullman. The other operator’s car’s were similar to C&NW’s.
The fifth road in question is SP, whose own bi-levels were steam-heated and never operated as push-pulls. They were regularly operated in the same trains as Harriman coaches.
I’m not sure when CP got its gallery bi-levels for Montreal suburban service.
CP’s came in around 1970. Still looking for the other (Ed Burns got CRI&P) non-steam operator.
Simpe question to answer, and there are actually two others. The IC has MU-Electric Chicago gallery-style cars, and certainly never used any behind steam. I think the South Shore now has a few also, even though most of its fleet is modern single-level.
Pardon, did not see the 1950-1960’s limitation. I do not think the Milwaukee ever used bilevels behind steam, but they did use bilevels, and I assume they did before the 50’s were over.
So Ed and Dave have the correct answers (Ed got his in first). CB&Q, C&NW and SP all used steam in the 1950s, including trains with the new bilevels. All of them were originally steam heated, with axle generators (SP, C&NW) or lighting power from either the locomitive (on short CB&Q trains) or a power car (on long CB&Q trains). RI and MILW got their cars in the early 1960s, set up for HEP from the beginning. C&NW converted its StLCC cars to HEP when the Pullman bilevels arrived in 1958. SP’s remained steam heated until retired by CalTrain in the 1980s.
Rob:
I read that the last three E9A’s that the MILW purchased came from EMD with HEP.
Ed Burns
MILW 36AC-38AC (six E9A’s) were equipped with HEP when built. MILW 32C or 33C was later HEP-equipped with the HEP generator drawing off of the #2 engine.
C&NW’s Chicago fleet included E8s and ex-freight F7s with Cummins HEP sets. Before HEP C&NW’s GP7s and a couple H-16-66 “Baby Trainmasters” had low-voltage generators for lighting. (I earlier said that C&NW’s StLCC cars had axle generators. They didn’t.)
SP had 16 FM Trainmasters and 11 dual-ended GP9s. FP7s, SD7s and SD9’s with boilers were borrowed for Commute service as needed. In the 1970s the 10 SDP45’s were transferred from Amtrak lease, and 3 GP40P-2s were purchased to replace the Trainmasters.
Rock Island did some interesting HEP conversions when it purchased its first batch of bi-levels. The first HEP locomotives were E6A 630, F7A’s 675-677 and AB6’s 750-751. I think that E8A 661 and E9A’s 662-665 (all ex-UP) were added when the second order of bi-levels was purchased.
The ex-UP units weren’t all ready when the P-S bilevels were delivered, so RI borrowed some C&NW units to cover. RI also leased C&NW bilevels on a couple of occasions, but used RI power. I don’t recall RI ever mixing the Budd and P-S bilevels, though there’s no reason it shouldn’t have worked.
You and Ed should decide who posts the next question.
Rob and All:
I’ll ask the question. These railroads had dome sleeping cars purchased for what train? In the off season, some of them were repainted for another railroad and returned in their original colors. Name the original railroads, which train they were purchased for, which railroad they went to for the winter, and what colors were they repainted.
Ed Burns
That reads, to me, a description of the dome cars the NP bought for the North Coast Limited and, in the winter season, the IC ran them on the City of Miami–and on the Panama Limited. Since Wayne Johnston liked his trains painted in the IC colors, they were so painted–and repainted for the NP after the winter season. They were also operated on the South Wind, but its operators were cinchy, and ran them in the NP colors.
My first ride in a dome was on the Panama, from Brookhaven to Canton–and back down on the City of New Orleans. I had the opportunity to explain, to another passenger, the significance of the lights by the railroad that changed from green to red as we came upon them.
Johnny:
WOW!! You are good and know your passenger trains.
Next question to you.
Ed Burns
Ed, living across the street from the main line of the Mainline of Mid America for three years, I was quite familiar with the cars–at one time, an E-L sleeper was regularly in the consist of the Pannyma (as IC men in Mississippi called it), and I had to look sharply to see that it was not an IC car. I regret that I was unable to see the northbound consist the second day after the northbound was unable to run above McComb because a small creek had flooded, and I am sure that Pullman cobbled together a consist to run south the following day.
A further note, on the Seminole–even the CG and ACL cars and the CG engines that ran regularly on this train were painted IC colors. I did sleep in a UP sleeper (American Sailor), in a upper berth with windows from North Cairo to Birmingham in June of '66, and I do not think it had been repainted. Apparently, the IC’s 6-6-4’s were being used for military transport (later that month, I rode from Meridian to Shreveport (coach, of course), and a carload of soldiers boarded in Jackson, apparently having arrived on the Panama).
Where on the Southern could you be traveling either east or south (or, west or north), depending upon what train you were riding, on a particular stretch of track and geographically be going in the same direction? I know of two locations.
Both locations in Tennessee…
Chattanooga - Oooltewah on routes of “Birmingham Special” and "Royal Palm
Knoxville - Morristown on routes of “Brimingham Special” and “Carolina Special”
You named one section; On one of those you named, everything moving in one compass direction had the same TT direction . On the other, there was a short section in which you also had northbound and southbound trains moving in the same compass direction.
On the one you missed, the situation was complicated with the trains of a foreign line which had the through trains either backing in or backing out of the city station.
How were these differences handled handled so that there would be no confusion?