There were many trains running via Springfield meeting that description inlcuding use of the Roger Wiliams equipment during Amtrak that I have already described. The trains via Springfield before Amtrak were the “INland Route” joint NYCentral (B&A)-New Haven trains. The only through train since the 1929 Depression that used the route that I am asking about was the Day Express, which avoided Providence and stopped at all the other stops of the State of Maine (night) Express
But there was a Cedar Hlll (New Haven) to Worchester route, too, which gave line not needing Hartford and SPringfield but an all NH, H &H route. Was it always freight only?
What route would the Day Express take to make all stops that the State of Maine overnighter made EXCEPT PROVIDENCE?
Nearly all New Haven branches and main lines had some sort of passenger service before the onset of the 1929 depression. Of course it was not always freight only!!!
A service planned for use by FCD cars, a Mack Bus body on PCC trucks and motors, would obviously not run through to Boston on one end (assuming the New York Central would allow such a vehicle on B&A tracks) and through to New Haven, let alone New York on the other end.
But it was run by RDC’s. But there is no record of any NH RDC’s interlining over other railroads. The only interline RDC operations to my knowledge (and I can be corrected if someone has additional information) were the Crusader-Wall Street Reading Terminal Phila - Jersey City (then Newark after Aldein Plan implementation), which was Reading-CofNJ (then Reading-CofNJ-PRR); and the B&M-CP Allouette between Boston and Montreal. which usually had a CP RDC mu’ed with a B&M RDC.
The service served only two cities and on-line towns, and most passengers did use connections at the southern end of service.
You essentially covered the route already in your partially-correct answers but extended to include more than the cities the specific route served, places that would be off-limits to a FCD car…
YOu asked whether Worcester - New London was always freight-only. (Note it shares Groton - New London with the NEC main line, the actual junction, a wye, is at Groton. There is an interchange concecting track (which has seen passenger trains) at New London to the Central Vermont, which is on the west side of the Thames River, the Worcester - New London line being on the east side, actually Worcester - Groton, but very few trains stop at Groton.
I replied that all main and branch lines of the New Haven had passenger service at one time or another.
Do you wish your answer to be Worcester - New London?
Pardon me, you said Ceder Hill - Worcester, not New London - Worcester, and Ceder Hill implies freight-only, because Ceder Hill is a freight yard. But to go from Ceder Hill Yard’s connection with the NEC to Worcester, there were at least two all-New Haven routes, and both of course did have passenger service at one time. One was the old White Train route through Willamantic and then (always with a change of trains) boarding the New London - Worcester line, which still leaves the NEC at Groton and is operated by P&W for freight. And the other classic passenger service would be an NEC train from New Haven to New London, and then change to a New London - Worcester local, which followed the Boston train out to Groton and then turned north. Both the White Train route and the New London - Worcester passenger service dissapeared before WWII, with only the portion of the White Train route east of Willamantic remaining in service with Boston - Hartford -Waterbury trains (the Comet was used on the service at times, rode it), cut back to just Boston - Hartford towards its termination completely. The Budd car service originally planned for FCD cars was the New London - Worcester service, and for a week there was a connecting Winchendon - Worcester Boston and Maine train that had a discontinuation notice posted before the useful New Haven Railroad connection was established! The B&M train had an Alco road-switcher and a combine and coach, both wood open-platform cars. I don’t think the new New Haven New London - Worcester service was restored after the 1956 hurricain. McGinnis or Alpert was in charge and not Dumaine.
The State of Maine stopped at New London, Providence, than Worcester going north and the reverse goind south. The equipment returning as the Day Express during WWII anad a short time after stopped at New London and then Worcester and used this Groton - Worcester line.
So I will ask a new
Big hint: The system had connection with a big city system which also had its own interurban lines with very different equipment. There was trolley frieght service on both systems, including interline moves (but no car interchange with steam railroads, just transloading), but this vanished before WWII. The track connection was broken between them during WWII because the connection was paralleled by excellent steam railroad local service and the steel scrap value of a large bridge was very high. But the last lines of the system operated into 1953. Elements of the large city system still exist on one form or another.
The West Penn Lines of South West Pennnsylvania. I thought I had posted earlier. Thx IGN
100% correct. The Trafford-Irwin segment was given up in 1942, one of the very few electric railwau abandonments in WWII. The connection to Pittsburgh Railways had been at Trafford, and the switch on the PR reverse loop was in place through to the paveing over of that loop after abandonment about 1952. In the postWWII era there were eight cross-country lines operating and one local streetcar in Connolsville (one line, one track, one car, the South Connolsville line) The car usually asigned was the systems only remaining Cincinnati Curve-side, a remenant of the abandoned separate Allegainy Division, which also connected to Pittsburgh Railways, but at a different location, and abandoned before WWII. It was a regular airbraked safety car and is at the Arden Pennsylvania Trolley Musuem. But as far as I know none of the classic 1912 design interurban cars, originally with center doors only, but the then fornt-right corner doors and steps added, were saved. These non-air cars held down all the interurban routes except Greensburg - Irwin, where conventional end-door cars ran. Abandonment of the “Coke Division” started in June 1949 with the branches south from Uniontown to Brownsvile, Fairchance, and Martin City and ended with the abandonement of the main line, Greenburg - Connolsville - Uniontown. the South Connolsville local car, and the Hecla Junction - Latrobe branch in 1953. Hecla Junction was half way between Greensburg and Connnolsville. and there was a good Italian restaurant at the wye.
I look forward to your question.
My apologies for the delays in my reply. I’m out west and been busy and not had good connections.
To my question. I hate to ask another traction question, It is a subject I know more about.
Anyway the question:
In 1912 San Francisco opened it Municipal Railway to the cries of communism. What was the first that San Francisco did that caused this cry?
Thx IGN
Requring public ownership of a system that had been a privately owned and operated, I think the Geary Street route was the first to operate under these allegations of a communist attitude.
Geary Street was Muni’s first line. But what really mattered was directly competing with private Market Street Railway cars on Market Street itself and then building the Twin Peaks and Sunset Tunnels for its exclusive use to take business away from Market Street which could not use the tunnels and had a much longer and slower route to the points they reachedf.
My apoligies for not getting back here sooner
San Francisco was not the first government to reallocate private property in this way. Street railway’s were generally franchises and as such were subject to the political winds of various politicos. In San Francisco people came to dislike much of corruption involved with the United Railways(Southern Pacific controlled the United Railways)(especially in the wake of the 1906 earthquake). The takeover of franchises was part off at was part of the act that created Muni.
However Muni was/is a first in this country for a major city. Think in a more general way.
Thx IGN
Agaiin, Mini was the first municipal operation that ran a service directly competing with a franchised private company, with the four tracks on Market Street, two inside for Market Street Railway and its Predicessor, United, and the outer two tracks for MUNI. Other cities, New York and Washington DC, also had competing operations on the same street, but they belonged to two private companies, not a municipal operation and a private franchised company. The usual practice was to share the tracks. In New York, this often meant two slots for two power conduit systems.
Other Municipal operations, such as Detroit, that began while private companies operated, were new lines to provide service to areas that the private company did not feel justified the investment.
There were other places were there were two tracks on one street. 42nd Street between 10th Avenue and 12th Avenue had four tracks, two for New York Railways (“Green LInes”, General Motors owned after 1926, and Third Avenue Railway, both private companies.
Another first for San Francisco was ending the franchise of a private company’s cable operation and replacing it with a Municipal electric streetcar line.
Also while Detroit did start a government owned operation they did not start til 1920. SF Muni predated that in 1912.
Thx IGN
Narig, was not the 1920 date the date when the basic United streetcar system was moved from private to city ownership and became the Detroit Department of Street Railways? I think up to that date there was a Detroit Civic Railway that did build a few lines into areas where United would not provide service. OIften these were single-track lines run by second hand four-wheel cars and then the earliest Birney four-wheel safety cars. I think there were two or three such lines. Of course they were also merged into DSR.
I may be wrong,. and if you have the correct dates, please correct me!
Dave I will give to you the honor of the next question.
The answer I was looking for was this SFMuni was the first major operation by a government of a public transit system. While the take over of Geary St was the begining it was the major expansion with the Sunset and Twin Peaks tunnels that made Muni a major operation. The freewheeling expendures(to quote the Hearst papers) of money from city coffers that was the complaint.
San Francisco’s Municipal Railway celebrates 1000 years of operation next year FYI.
Thx IGN
PS six states in three words oy voy good one.
WOW San Francisco is celebrating 1000 yrs.
While we are on transit, name all USA and Canadian cities and towns that operated PCC cars in street transit service as well as those doing so now, excluding all high-floor “heavy-rail” rapid transit lines that may have paid royalties to Tranist Research for use of some PCC ideas and equipment. And name those that had two separate systems operating PCC’s. No need to mention any but the main city of a metropolitan concubation. Example: Boston suffices. No need to add Cambrdige, Newton, Mitlon, Mattapan, etc.
Don’t answer unless you can name at least one city with two operators and and at least ten cities in total.
Here goes: 1. Boston 2. Brooklyn 3. Philadelphia 4. Washington DC 5. Pittsburgh 6. Johnstown PA 7. Cleveland (Cleveland Rys and Shaker Heights Rapid Transit) 8. Detroit 9. Chicago 10. St Louis 11. Kansas City 12. Dallas 13. El Paso 14. San Francisco 15. Los Angeles (Los Angeles Ry and Pacific Electric) 16. San Diego 17. Montreal 18. Toronto