Classic Railroad Quiz (at least 50 years old).

Classic Trains General Discussion
1941

Speaking for myself, at least, I have lived the NYCity area stuff and only read about the rest.

An addition to my comments on Dave’s post about the LV to Exchange Pl. I believe LV long distance trains changed PA to GG1 or vice versa at Hunter while the Flemington or other “local” (not as far as the Wyoming Valley) trains came out of Exchange Pl which did not require an engine change at Hunter. I hope Dave or somebody else can clarify. The fact is that I didn’t realize the LV went to Exchange Pl so late in the game until reacently when a friend gave me a b&w print of an LV steaming off the Passaic Bridge into Newark station.

1942

It is not completely clear that they used PRR Excchange Place at the end. Some have said they ran through a connecting track to the Jersey Central station, and I have no definite knowledge one way or another. I do know that even if the westbound train (down to only one at the end) was in the PRR employee timetable for the JC-Newark the line, the eastbound mornning train ran as an extra. This was so that if it arrived early at Newark, it would not have to be held for time (which would tie up a hot track in the station), but could leave early. This has confused some people into thinking the Jersey City service was discontinued, but it was not until the train came off completely.

Regarding the Bay Bridge. My understanding is that on the Bridge, SN and the SP’s IE used 1200V DC overhead wire, and the Key Sysytem 600V 3rd rail. The Key system “Bridge Units” (3-truck two body articulated very modern looking cars using old motors and trucks and mechanical and electrical gear) had 3rd rail shoes as well as pantographs. Most other Key system did not have third rail shoes, and 3rd rail was used by the Key only on the Bridge. All Key equipment was 600V DC. All Southern Pacific Interurban Elecctric equipment was 1200V DC with pantographs. The SN equipment was both 600V third rail and 600 and 1200V pantograph, and all three were used. 1200V pantograph was used on the main line to Sacramento. This involved of few blocks of running on Key System via trackage rights, and usually the engineer would not bother to use the changeover to 600V and back but simply put up with the slow speed and dim lights on the short stretch of Key System tracks. 600V overhead wire was used in Sacramento and in Chico. 600 Volt third rail was used north of Sacramento. They could have used it on the Bridg ebut didn’t.

The Birney cars used in Yuba City Marysville ser

1943

Who has the honor of asking the next question?

1944

rcdrye. He mentioned the PRR with H&M tracks to Jersey City and the Penn Staiton tunnels. Those were the other two.

The present Newark Station never had third rail and overhead wire on the same tracks. Until Manhattan Transfer was eliminated, a different (old) grade level station was used, and the PRR joint service with H&M had its own PRR two track elevated stub-end station at Park Street, Newark. The present Newark station went into operation at the time the 11000 volt electrification from Trenton to Synnyside Yard and Harold Tower - New York Connecting Railroad was completed and placed into operation. The thrid rail tracks used by PATH todoay never had overhead, and the tracks used by NJT and Amtrak today never had third rail.

1945

Sorry bout this I missed a message here.

OK a question: I am posting a link to a picture of a locomotive here Chicago & North Western 503

Name when this locomotive was built. Not rebuilt (it had more than one). And it’s original assignment.

It is unique in more than one way

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=284070

Thx IGN

1946

C&NW 503 was built as UP 925B March 1953 as en E8B, rebuilt from E2B 984C which was built in 1937 (originally LA-3?). Rebuilt June 1973 by C&NW.

http://utahrails.net/cnw/cnw03.php#501-e8

1947

And its original assignment? (hint look at the original number)

Rgds IGN

1948

LA-3 was part of the City of Los Angeles (UP/C&NW) This was the “Seventh train” of UP’s streamliner fleet.

My question: Which North American interurban shared a major bridge with an electrified steam road?

For extra credit, which city/suburban streetcar company shared a major bridge with a steam road, sharing only one rail?

1949

As for the first question, a correct answer, but not the one you probably are looking for, are all the bridges on the IC suburban between Central Station, Roosevelt Avenue, 12th Street Chicago and Kensington Junction, where the IC tracks themselves are still used by the last of the Insull interurbans, the South Shore, which certainly was an interurban, if now regarded as a suburban railroad. I would assume that there is at least one major bridge on that line, over a river or canal, not just street overpasses. I IC suburban is an electrified steam operation.

But possiblyi at one point the Washington, Baltimore, and Anapolis did share a bridge with the PRR for the short time it contiued to operate into Washington after the PRR electrified to Patomic Yard and Washington Union Station. I know there was a grade crossing between the two, and they may have shared a bridge with separate tracks.

But should the East Bay suburban operations of the Southern Pacific, reorganized as the Interurban Electric, be considered as electrified steam, since the SP did provide some suburban passenger service to the East Bay before electrification? There was a major bridge leading to the SP Oakland Mole, electrified for the SP’s Interurban Electric suburban service, and at varying times both Key and SN ran there, even though Key later had its own terminal. The SF Oakland Bay Bridge is not in the runing since the tracks were always electric, with two systems.

The Daisy Line was the interurban that connected Louisville, Kentucky, with New Albany, and possibly Jefforsonville and other points in Indiana. It was a broad-gauge operation with equpiment compatible with the Louisville Streetcar system, and it use a stanard guage steam railroad to reach Indiana, sharing one rail over the bridge. I think it was the Big Four of the NYC system, but it may have been the Monon.

Tbe Indiana Railroad may have used the same

1950

Correct on the City/suburban New Albany and Louisville (Bridge was K&IT, IRR used the Big Four bridge). On the other hand the NA&L didn’t actually share a rail. Their 5’2" rails were interlaced with the K&IT’s standard gauge (My error on the shared rail. I went back and checked after posting.)

The Interurban I was thinking of shared a bridge on its own track with a double-track steam road which was electrified. Part of the electrification still exists, though rebuilt and no longer serving this particular bridge. The bridge still serves freight trains and at least one passenger train.

1951

It must be one of the Connecticut Company lines between Danbury and East Norwalk. A good question as to whether these cross-country Connecticut Co. lines were truly interurbans, but still most would consider them as such, even though the equipment really was not different than local streetcars… Distances were short, and speeds were slow, with the Shore Line Trolley Museum’s RofW pretty typical. It might have been a line between Danbury and Norwalk or East Norwalk, or between any of these cities and Meridan or Bristol. The covered bridge shared with a steam road branch line suggests New England, and the New Haven did allow its Connecticuct Co. subsidiary to share branch-line tracks in specific locations. That “part of the electrificaiton still exists”, suggests the main Metro North Conn Dot New Haven line, with the Danbury Branch, which was double track electrfied, now single and diesel. And the main line is now 12,500 60 Hz and not 11:000V 25 Hz AC.

I would note that some consider the Shaker Heights to be an interurban. I don’t. It is a rapid transit line with light rail, formerly streetcar - type equipment. It did of course share bridges with the Cleveland Terminal electrfication.

Also in Butte, the Butte Anacona and Pacific had local a streetcar and interuban subsidiary, I think the interurban ran to place named Sela. Undoubtadly there were some shared bridges, possibly not only with BA&P, but also with the electrified Milwaukee Road as well.

1952

As a longtime South Shore rider, I will vouch for the fact that there are no bridges other than street overpasses on the IC electric line from Randolph Street to 115th Street (Kensington). IC crosses the Little Calumet River at about 132nd Street and the South Shore crosses the Calumet River on its own line near Lake Calumet Harbor where it parallels 130th Street.

1953

The bridge I’m looking for is double track with highway lanes hanging outside the trusses (Think Huey Long bridge). Both electrifications were DC, but different voltages.

1954

You say part of the electrification still exists, but not on this bridge. So, what DC elecctrfications are there that are electrified steam railroads? Only the New York Central’s, the Long Island Railroad, the Lackawanna’s converted to AC (a good canditate, since it was rebuilt), and the IC, and the South Shore,. if your consider that a steam railroad electrified, which is pretty far fetched but OK. The South Shore may have shared a bridge with the Northern Indiana interurban on the eastern outskirts of South Bend, possibly the track now used as a freight industry siding and for conenction to the NYC and/ or GT, with the passenger trains and electrification now running to the Airport on a different alignment. The Long Island did have electric service to Country Life Press, now just for New York and Atlantic diesel freight service, and possibly this includes a bridge that one of the Long Island trolley lines also used. The only electric abandonment on the New York Central was the Getty’s Square Branch, and it did not share any right-of-way with the Third Avenue streetcar system, none of whose routes could be described as interurban, even though they did cross county and city boundaries. I am not aware of any reduction in electrified mileage of the DL&W electrification.

Or do you wish to consider the H&M an interurban line? (Officially it was a railroad, practically it is an interstate heavy rapid transit line.) Possibly its old alignment to the Newark Park Street terminal, actually PRR trackage, not H&M, since everything west of Journal Sq. Jersey City yard was PRR oowned, including the original Park Street elevated terminal, included a bridge that the D&LW electric trains once used but do not now with some line relocation. Both DC and different voltages.

1955

I wasn’t aware of the DL&W/H&M bridge, though H&M wasn’t really an interurban. Like your previous question about the QRL&P, think “North American”. As an added detail, there was a track connection between the interurban and steam road on the east end of the bridge. The bridge is on the edge of a large city, and the home base of the interurban was on the “wrong” end of the bridge. I’m pretty sure the remainder of the 2400 volt DC electrification was changed to AC in the 1990s - in fact the public agency that now runs it shared the work on the AC/diesel design NJT has for former DL&W lines. The bridge in question lost its electrification in the early 50’s, and the interurban in 1955.

1956

DL&W and H&M shared a bridge??? Where and when? I can’t concieve of where or why of this. Also, H&M could not be considerd interurban but rapid transit. Interurban indicated single or double single car sets but not trains; often just a motorman or motorman and conductor only crews; single track between cities or towns; low station platforms; fare collected on board… Rapid transit, such as H&M, was train sets, double track, motorman plus conductor and maybe other trainmen, high level platforms at specific stations; fare collected at station turnstyles.

I am wracking my brain and can’t think of where the DL&W and H&M would have shared a bridge. At Kearney, in the Meadows, the two come close together with H&M sharing an underpass area at one point. There is no place else the two get close enough to need to share space.

1957

Thinking North American, you are undoubtadly referring to the CN Bridge leading to Montreal Island, locaton of the City, and used by the old Montrealer-Washingtonian and Ambassador to reach Central Station, possibly used by today’s Amtrak Adorondak, but the old Laurentian, Red Wing, and Alloouette, used a different (CP) bridge to Miontreal West and Windsor Station. I believe today’s VIA Ocean uses the bridge, plus lots of freight. I was not aware that the existing Deux Montains electrification ever ran south of Central Station, but it you say it did, I have to believe you. The interurban was the Montreal and Southern Counties, which was a CN subsidiary or at least partly owned by CN, and it also handled freight and there definitely was a track connection on the mainland side of the bridge . I ran M&SC No. 9 green wood interurban car at the Branaford Trolley Museum, now the Shore Line TrolleY Museum. I am prettty familiar with that line, even though I never rode it. But the idea that the CN Mt. Royal Tunnel electrification at one time extended south is news for me, and any information you can provide will be welcome. I think the bridge had three tracks, with the interurban only requiring one track.

Henry. I think you are right that the PRR-H&M joint service and the DL&W did not share a bridge. There is a point where their rightofways, today, are adjacent, as you know.

1958

I kinda recollect that the PRR and H&M had two Hackensack bridges and shared at least one, the northern most of the two perhaps, probably about a mile west of Journal Sq. complex. And I remember the wire over the 3rd railed H&M track right adjacent to the DL&W at Kearney where the Corridor went overhead…it was a scant couple hundred feed. Saw Tube trains on the track, but never a PRR train under the wire there. The Broker, incidenlty, was always seen on the bridge further south and higher than the rest of the trackage in the area. Smoke or Sharks…loved to pace the Broker!

1959

daveklepper is correct. The Victoria bridge was electrifed to the wye in St. Lambert where CN steam (or in the case of the Green Mountain Flyer, Rutland steam) took over. For a good photo of the changeover see Jim Shaughnessy’s “The Rutland Road”. The electrification was never used for suburban purposes, only mainline, and was removed after the end of team, or maybe after the opening of Central Station replacing Bonaventure. Today’s Adirondack and Ocean use it, and the Montrealer used it from 1972 to 1995. According to my M&SC book, the track connection was only on the east (St. Lambert) end. At some point in the teens, a proposal was floated to make a connection on the Montreal end to allow bidirectional running on the bridge, which is quite long. Between the requirement for left hand running and having incompatible electrical systems, nothing came of it. The GT/CN had the tracks inside the truss, M&SC was single track on the outside.

The CN replaced M&SC service with diesel service in 1955 using FM C-liners and rebuilt heavyweight coaches. M&SC 504 and 610 are on display at the Seashore Trolley Museum (STM also has 621).

1960

Montreal & Southern Counties Railway