Combined consist of Empire Builder, North Coast Limited and Twin Cities Zephyr

Model Railroader Prototype information for the modeler
1

Hello,

I am Trying to work out the car consist of the combined Empire Builder, North Coast Limited and Twin Cities Zephyr, mainly the NP North Coast Limited and the CBQ Zephyr cars that were used on this train around the 1968-69-70 period.

What NP NCL cars and CBQ Zephyr cars were in the consist?

Are the Zephyr cars the same as the ones used on the California Zephyr? Would BLI unlettered CZ cars work for this train?

I am working off a picture on page 95 of CB&Q in color by Michael J. Spoor; and other pictures in this book also. I have searched the internet and cant find much except for Empire Builder only consists.

I am currently running HO scale Walthers Empire Builder cars in a mix of GN Orange - Green/Big Sky Blue and 3 Walthers NP Vista Domes on the rear with CB&Q E-units up front. Obviously my train is not correct as it is nearly the full Empire Builder consist with the 3 NP domes on the rear end. I know one of the NP Domes was a Sleeper Dome but I am not that fussed with true prototypes as I am pretty much an off the shelf modeller. If I cant run it out of the box I cant run it at all!

Much appreciated, GMNUT

2

I’m not sure if the Twin City Zephyr would be included in this or not, that was I think a separate operation - it was a “Burlington only” train unlike the others you mention.

Since the Great Northen and Northern Pacific ended at St.Paul, Minnesota, they used thier subsidiary compnay, the Burlington Route, to forward their passenger trains from St.Paul to Chicago. In times (like during the winter) when the trains had fewer patrons and so had fewer cars, the trains would be short enough that the CB&Q could put the Builder (or Western Star) and the NCL (or Mainstreeter) together and pull them as one train to St.Paul, where they would be split up and taken by their owning railroads to the west coast.

So it wasn’t really a mix of equipment being used together…it wasn’t like “let’s use NP diners, and a couple of GN sleepers, and an NP observation car”. It was two complete trains temporarily combined into one. So, you’d see say a couple of CB&Q E-units, followed by the entire Empire Builder, then the entire NCL behind it.

I guess if the trains were really short, the Zephyr could have been included too??

3

Stix;

Thanks I have a picture headed by 5 E units folowed by - GN baggage, NP baggage, Zephyr baggage/dorm?, 3 Zephyr Domes, 2 GN E/Builder Domes, Big Sky Blue Great Dome, GN/EB, Big Sky Blue, GN/EB ( 3-I can’t identify - small picture), 2 NP NCL Vista Domes, 2 NP NCL cars (again can’t identify - one is two tone green and one silver maybe a coach and a 24-8 sleeper), then looks like NP Dome sleeper and a NP Observation car. In total 18 cars - 2 head end cars, 4 zephyr cars, 6 Empire Builder cars, 6 NP NCL cars. Combined Morning Zephyr, North Coast Limited and Empire Builder Eastbound running through Victory, dated October 1968.

I also have another shot of a Westbound running through Galena Junction - 4 E units, 2 head end cars, 15 car consist of the combined AFTERNOON ZEPHYR, EMPIRE BUILDER and NORTH COAST LIMITED dated March 1968. Again the last 6 cars in the consist are NP NCL cars( 2 V/Domes, NP coach?, NP 24-8 sleeper, NP Sleeper Dome, NP Observation).

I have 3 Walhers NP Vista Domes( 1 substituted for the Dome Sleeper) and the 24-8 sleeper. So need to know what the other cars in the NCL portion are and also the cars in the Zephyr portion are also.

Thank you

4

Well Bill Kuebler’s book on the “Vista-Dome North Coast Limited” is probably the best source for info on the NCL in the sixties.

BTW remember when trying to work out what’s what from pics that the NP’s “Slumbercoaches” were stainless steel like the Zephyr cars, they were never painted in the NP colors.

5

I don’t know if there’s a Yahoo group for the Q–those guys might help.

My “meager contribution”: On page 42 of the 1972 BN Annual, there’s a photo captioned: “The combined Empire Builder-North Coast Limited-Morning Zephyr, sporting no less than eight domes, including the nation’s first, heads out of Chicago for the Twin Cities on March 28, 1970”. There looks to be a lot of snow swirling up (go Q!!) so it’s hard to read the consist. The train is post merger, so my comments below reflect the paint jobs–everything is officially BN. My best guess:

BN 9942–ex Q E-8A in BN paint

Q E-8A–silver

Q E-8A–silver–all three elephant style

GN baggage–BS blue

Q dome car–full skirts

Q dome car–the first dome car

GN dome coach–EB paint

GN dome coach–BS paint

GN big dome–BS paint

GN flat top car–EB paint–window layout makes me think diner–difficult to tell–maybe something else

GN flat top car–EB paint

GN flat top car–BS paint–I would think this and the one above would be sleepers

dome–I’m thinking NP, probably coach

dome–same as above

flat top

dome–maybe NP sleeper dome???

flat top

The photo shows the train 3/4 front left, so the rear cars disappear into the distance/snow.

Let us know what you find out on the subject.

Ed

6

Good afternoon: Following is from December, 1969 Official Guide

NP Trains 25 and 26 the “North Coast Limited” were the flagship passenger trains of the “Main Street of the Northwest.” The NP was justly proud of its being the “Route of the Vista-Dome North Coast Limited.”

Trains 1 and 2 handled the following cars:

Dome “Lounge-in-the-sky” buffet sleeper

Standard sleeping cars with duplex roomettes, roomettes, duplex single rooms, and bedrooms.

Slumbercoach, which according to the Official Guide, featured 24 single rooms and 8 double rooms. Slumbercoach space could be purchased with a coach ticket.

Vista-dome coaches

Reclining seat coaches, with “leg rests and foot rests.”

Travellers rest car (buffet lounge)

Diner

Trains 1 and 2 were the “Mainstreeter.”

1 and 2 had Slumbercoaches available between Chicago and Seattle as follows. One car ran on CB&Q train 51 and 52 between Chicago and Minneapolis. Another Slumbercoach operated on NP 1 and 2 between Minneapolis and Seattle.

The Mainstreeter carried reclining seat coaches and an economy-buffet car.

Both trains followed the same route between St. Paul, Minnesota, and Bozeman, Montana. Trains 25 and 26 operated via Butte on their run between Bozeman and Garrison. Trains 1 and 2 operated via Helena on their way to and from Garrison.

The same route applied to both trains between Garrison and Seattle.

Another interesting set of trains operated between Seattle, Tacoma, and Portland via the “Puget Sound Line.” This line handled trains of the GN and the UP as well as the NP.

NP 407 and 408 operated between Seattle and Portland with a parlor-bar-lounge, reclining seat coaches, and an economy buffet car.

The NP had two runs per day via the “Columbia River Line” between Pasco and Portland via Vancouver, WA. These were mostly

7

GMNUT

I’ll try to answer each of your questions.

I am Trying to work out the car consist of the combined Empire Builder, North Coast Limited and Twin Cities Zephyr, mainly the NP North Coast Limited and the CBQ Zephyr cars that were used on this train around the 1968-69-70 period.

According to CB&Q in Color, volume 2, these trains were combined in October 1967.

What NP NCL cars and CBQ Zephyr cars were in the consist?

The Morning and Afternoon (Twin City) Zephyrs usually had 6-7 cars. 3-4 Dome Coaches, Dining car, Baggage Bar Lounge, Dome Observation. Looks like the Dome Obs and Dining Car were dropped once the trains were combined. Looks like 2 NP Dome Coaches and a Dome Sleeper, also appears that an NP Baggage car was in the consist as well.

Are the Zephyr cars the same as the ones used on the California Zephyr? Would BLI unlettered CZ cars work for this train?

Close but not exact. The Dome Coaches had different window arrangements. If you do use the Dome Observation, the Twin Cities Zephyr dome was towards the front of the car while the CZ dome was towards the rear. Don’t think there is a good stand in for the baggage/bar/lounge.

I am working off a picture on page 95 of CB&Q in color by Michael J. Spoor; and other pictures in this book also. I have searched the internet and cant find much except for Empire Builder only consists.

As stated above, volume 2 by Michael Spoor has quite a few pics. Most consists were 16-18 cars.

I am currently running HO scale Walthers Empire Builder cars in a mix of GN Orange - Green/Big Sky Blue and 3 Walthers NP Vista Domes on the rear with CB&Q E-units up front.

The pics in the book shows both Green/Orange and Blue cars and up to 5 E units on the front.

Obviously my train is not correct as it is nearly the full Empire Builder consist with the 3 NP domes on the rear end. I know one of the NP Domes was

8

Ed, thanks, I have similar pictures but have the same kind of problem, as in; the last half of the train is usually hard to make out as it vanishes off into the distance or is obscured by a bridge or snow.

Thanks for your help.

Lyndon

9

[quote user=“RedGrey62”]

GMNUT

I’ll try to answer each of your questions.

I am Trying to work out the car consist of the combined Empire Builder, North Coast Limited and Twin Cities Zephyr, mainly the NP North Coast Limited and the CBQ Zephyr cars that were used on this train around the 1968-69-70 period.

According to CB&Q in Color, volume 2, these trains were combined in October 1967.

What NP NCL cars and CBQ Zephyr cars were in the consist?

The Morning and Afternoon (Twin City) Zephyrs usually had 6-7 cars. 3-4 Dome Coaches, Dining car, Baggage Bar Lounge, Dome Observation. Looks like the Dome Obs and Dining Car were dropped once the trains were combined. Looks like 2 NP Dome Coaches and a Dome Sleeper, also appears that an NP Baggage car was in the consist as well.

Are the Zephyr cars the same as the ones used on the California Zephyr? Would BLI unlettered CZ cars work for this train?

Close but not exact. The Dome Coaches had different window arrangements. If you do use the Dome Observation, the Twin Cities Zephyr dome was towards the front of the car while the CZ dome was towards the rear. Don’t think there is a good stand in for the baggage/bar/lounge.

I am working off a picture on page 95 of CB&Q in color by Michael J. Spoor; and other pictures in this book also. I have searched the internet and cant find much except for Empire Builder only consists.

As stated above, volume 2 by Michael Spoor has quite a few pics. Most consists were 16-18 cars.

I am currently running HO scale Walthers Empire Builder cars in a mix of GN Orange - Green/Big Sky Blue and 3 Walthers NP Vista Domes on the rear with CB&Q E-units up front.

The pics in the book shows both Green/Orange and Blue cars and up to 5 E units on the front.

Obviously my train is not correct as it is nearly the full Empire Builder consist with the 3 NP domes on the rear end. I kno

10

Stix;

Thanks I am only modeling the CBQ run of the train. They did combine the Zephyr, E/Builder and NCL but I am not sure of the dates or consists. But it seems like the Zephyr portion was about 4 cars, E/Builder 8 cars and NCL 6 cars. Exact car consist is what I’m unsure of.

Thanks, Lyndon

11

Think Video. There is one entitled something like “Chicago Odyssey Volume 1” that has some full run bys of the combined trains. Unfortunately this video is not in my collection, I have only borrowed and viewed it, otherwise I would review and report what I see.

On a side note the NCL Dome Sleeper 310 is the one that I almost had as the first addition to my 12" to the foot scale collection. A legal snaffu is the only reason I don’t own it today.

12

I have found this post late because I was looking for information I had not yet found. However, I will share with you two links that might help. I searched for the term North Coast Limited in Yahoo (still good until Microsoft buys it and screws everything up) and found links for N trains. The information also list additional resources.

http://www.railwayclassics.com/np04.htm

http://www.trainweb.org/fredatsf/np54.htm

There are other resources, including a set of photographs of various cars used in the train at different times, that popped up in the Yahoo search. My interest was in Fred Klein’s article because it was very close to the date I rode that train from Valley City, North Dakota to Seattle, Washington by myself the summer I was 13. It was a cool trip. I continued on to Fresno, California from Seattle. Maybe this is why I still consider trains to be interesting.

Ralph

13

The CB&Q portion of the combined train was a Baggage Lounge Car and three dome coaches, the NP portion of the train was generally a RPO Dormitory car the RPO section being stripped and checked baggage in its place.This NP generally travelled ahead of the CB&Q head end car and the NP Stainless steel 24-8 Slumbercoach, two dome coaches, travellers rest 48 seat dining car one flat top sleeper and the dome sleeper lounge of the NP generally brought up the markers. By this late date the NP Observation cars had been retired. The GN Empire Builder section most often ran between the CB&Q section and NP section but this could change if the Empire Builder was late arriving in St. Paul and then could be found trailing the NP North Coast Limited section. It did not happen often but often enough to create some additional interest. The GN section comprised a Baggage Dormitory usually just behind the power and following the CB&Q Twin Zephyr section was a pair of Empire Builder coach domes the G-N Ranch Car, GN Dining Car, Full dome Lounge and the remainder of the Empire Builder was comprised of sleeping cars.

It was always exciting to watch these trains being combined in St. Paul each morning as it required much switching. The NP Travellers Rest, Dining Car and Dome Sleeper Lounge were changed going east at St. Paul as was the GN Ranch Car Dining Car and Full Dome Lounge cars as this was where both the GN and NP Commissary departments were located.

Hope this answers some of your questions.

TTFN Al - in - Stockton

14

The link to CBQ group on Yahoo is

http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/CBQ

Those folks are very knowledgeable and helpful… Also, I just bought Bill Glick’s book on Burlington passenger cars. May be there is something in there of use. Let you know when I get it [:)]

15

I ‘worked’ for the ‘Q’ in the late 60’s. About 1967, the size of the trains was shortened and combined trains became the ‘norm’. Here is what I remember and have pictures of:

#21/#24 - Twin Zephyr. A round trip out of Chicago to MSP and return. This train left Chicago in the morning and left MSP in the afternoon. It was down to a bagg/buffet car and 2-3 dome chair cars. These trains were renumbered in late 1968 to #7/#10.

#22 - Afternoon Zephyr. This was a Friday & Sunday evening only departure out of Chicago for MSP. Was usually 2 ‘motors’ and 6-7 cars(dome chair, dinner, baggage). This train became #8 in late 1968.

#32/#25 - Combined EB/NCL. Out of MSP, in the winter season this train had both trains tied together. Usually had maybe 2 GN dome coaches & full length dome, plus diner & sleepers. The NP NCL section was usually 2 dome coaches, sleepers including a single dome sleeper and a Slumbercoach. any through baggage was put in baggage cars from either railroad or both(depending on volume). The Morning Zephyr to Chicago was combined with this train in St Paul(usually 2 dome chair cars). A typical ‘Winter’ train was about 16-17 cars and 3 ‘motors’.

Summer operation usually started no later than Memorial Day. The Zephyr section was combined with the EB(1st #32), and the NCL ran as a 2nd section(2nd #32). Alternating years the Zephyr section may be combined with the NCL(to even out cross charging). Operation of westbound #25 from Chicago to MSP was similar. May 29th of 1969 saw the largest ‘combined’ train I ever remember - 6 ‘motors’ and 32 passenger cars. The next day they split the train up into the normal ‘summer’ season sections. The train took a good delay at Winona Jct as they had to make 3 stops at the short platform to let off

16

Hello,

I can only give you my recollections from having ridden the Empire Builder between Seattle and Chicago on average about 4 times a year from 1966 to about 1972. The train that ran between Chicago and the Twin Cities was indeed a mix comprised of CB&Q, GN, and NP sections, headed up by a pair of CB&Q E8s. The train was in 3 parts: silver/red, orange/olive (or blue/white/black), and 2-tone green (I no longer remember the order, and all bets on colors were off with the arrival of the BN). Heading westward, the various sections were split off at the Twin Cities and additional cars were added to each. Then - on the GN and the NP - the “full length” Empire Builders and North Coast Limiteds respectively ran over their own routes as far as Spokane, WA where they were again broken down into those sections heading for Seattle or Portland (SP&S). The trip eastward worked the same way, in reverse. It was all very fascinating, particularly with that giant train spending 6 hours sweeping along the Mississippi!

Roy, Seattle