AC is a power wich is mechanically made by a generator in the electricity plant. It’s the result of a magnet moving in front of a couple of coils. Originally, when the AC leaves the electricity plant, it comes in 3 fases, which is the result of the rotor rotating in the dynamo. Those 3 fases are following eachother and is also known as a rotating field.
The amount of Hz given to that AC from the electricity company tells something about the rotating speed of their generators. It cannot be altered unless you start all over. Meaning you have to get rid of the rotating speed of that generator, so convert it to chemical electricity, which is DC. (Battery, solar power, etc). From there on, the rotating speed of the generator is gone.
Now you can start all over again by electronically simulating a coil of a generator rotating at another speed. Thus giving the 60Hz, by switching gently between + and - and vice versa 60 times a second. Then you have 60Hz AC.
There is another way, you’ll have to use a motor at 50 Hz, a set of gears to gain speed (1/5 faster) and a generator. In this case you are rebuilding your own powerplant. It’s this why the problem is not easily tackeled…
This won’t help anyone run trains; but it might interest somebody, and it illustrates Daan’s explanation:
The Amtrak P40 and P42 Genesis locomotives have separate alternators for traction and head-end power (HEP). Normally, the engine runs at 900 RPM and generates 60 hertz for HEP and 75 hertz for traction. When the locomotive is in the standby mode, the engine slows down to 720 RPM and the HEP load is switched to the traction alternator, which generates 60 hertz at that slower engine speed.
A single-phase frequency conversion must always involve some energy storage, since the output waveform will be finite at times when the input waveform is zero. A flywheel, as in a motor-generator set, is one way to do that; but, for an all-electronic conversion, a big capacitor (or a battery) is the most likely practical way. Ergo, AC-DC-AC, as Nick says.
I work a lot with frequency convertors at my work, they disposed a lot of 2 phase convertors from hitachi a while ago, but since they are used to run 3 phase motors, the output is also 3 phase. If using only one phase of that, it shuts off automatically. Besides that, it makes pulses instead of waves, which is also not usable…
A 3 phase transformer which converst from 3 phase 220 AC to one phase 18 AC is not available, the only one is a 3 to 1 phase transformer with a 24 volt output. But then you need equal amounts of (much more expensive!) equipment and the 24 volts output is also not an option.
To make a long story short, if you need the 60Hz, the only way is the way Nick describes…
Well, my Lionel Berkshire arrived today. Sadly it was a trainsound version and not a railsound version… You guess what happened when I put it on the track. The chuffs didn’t sound and the wistle and bell where continuous. (What I always say with ebay sales: Read carefully! Was precisely the thing I didn’t do. I had 3 berkshires in the watch-it part and chose the one which was new out of the box. Sadely thus the only one having trainsound… So it is my own mistake here…)
I located the rectifier bridge on the print, measured which capicitor was connected to them and changed it into a bigger version. But it didn’t help. Lionel uses the unflattened DC for the sound of the chuff instead of using a soundgenerator for it. This is why it can’t be solved by the capicitor. I hooked up another rectifier bridge in front of it, with a 25 volt 470mF capicitor, which should be more than capable of making DC. Even a battery instead of track power didn’t make the unit work. Instead of sound there was only a continuous tone like a diesel horn.
So, to be short, I’m going to search a proto1 (couplers!!) or locosound unit by mth to get sound in the engine. The engine itself is a beauty, a lot of detail, very nice running but not much smoke. To get it smoking , I’ll use a different resistor in the smoke unit. Overall I’m satisfied with it, because the detail and quality of the diecast is fantastic!!
But for the europeans, There are some things that simply don’t work with 50Hz, trainsounds being one of them… (and changing it is not possible)
Sorry to hear about this daan. That’s the same type of loco that came in my son’s first Lionel Set. We spent Christmas 2005 in the States and Santa brought a Lionel set with Trainsounds. It worked great Christmas day but on our return home to the UK it suffered the same contiuous whistle and bell issues.
As my son had played with it and heard what it could do
I did a few emails and researches. For small amounts of power (inside a locomotive for the sound module) an electronic oscillator can be used. (link: http://www.circuitsonline.net/circuits/view/126 )
For bigger amounts of power the “spur 0 shop” ( http://www.spur0shop.de/ ) will have a converter for 98 euro’s in february to convert 50Hz into 60Hz up to 80 watts.
I’ll wait untill then and order that convertor. It’s more then powerfull enough for the amount of trains I’m running…
Hi daan, Thats great news, the price break through that we have been looking for. It was only a matter of time before someone identified the market demand. That converter comes out at around £60. It will be intresting to find out what type of inverter they are using, modified or pure sine wave.
This is a lot better news for a first time Lionel train set buyer. Its now cheaper to keep the US spec. Transformer than replace it with a european version. It starts to make Lionel look more price competitive in the european market.
A link to their website: http://www.spur0shop.de/55501.html It seems to be a stepdown convertor from 220 to 110 volts with a frequency converter built in. It deliveres 110 volts 60Hz AC on the output!!
I’m a little put off by the roughness of that machine. It looks like it might be a homemade DC supply, perhaps around 12 volts, that may be available at the banana jacks on the front and also fed to a separate slicker-looking inverter tucked underneath. If that really puts out only 110 volts, it’s fine for prewar transformers, but a little marginal for the modern 120-volt stuff that might really need the 60 hertz.
Hi everyone! I’d like to start by saying thanks. What a great Forum, I never expected as many replies or as much detailed info.
I decided to go for it tonight and convert to DC. The main reason for this is that because my wife runs a Thomas the tank engine shop, and we want to import these sets, we really needed a good solution which allows us to provide a UK spec tested and stamped UK power supply. I know some european dealers supply converters or 18v AC supplies but as we only want to import Lionel Thomas and Percy, a lot of the accessories ( horns etc )are not too much of a loss.
I opened up Percy and reconnected the Black and red from the chassis straight into the black and red for the motor. The two orange feeds were removed and both circuit boards discarded. Initially I tried a Lionel G scale controller for DC from a Bachmann HO powerpack. Brilliant! I can’t get over how smooth Percy runs even at very low speeds. The horn switch now works as a cut off/isolation switch. The horn has also gone. The motor must have been DC to start with as I now have control of direction using the normal switch on the controller ie reversing the polarity.
I have just finished for the night having modified Thomas in the same way. Also much smoother.
I have no idea why they seem so much quieter or go faster (almost exactly twice the speed). As Lionel seem to rectify within the loco and then feed a normal DC motor perhaps they only rectify one side of the AC? I don’t know enough to be sure but after running them for over 3hours together there seems to be no problems. I had an unmodified Percy as a comparison re speed.
On a side note they do both seem sensitive to dirty track, tripping out the power supply for fractions of a second if they loose contact. The Bachmann supply is for HO Digital and although bigger than the HO DC one is maybe not getting enough current to the controller.
I will measure the current load tommorrow and see if I need a bigger Su
The MTH electronic reversing units that I have reverse-engineered include not only the rectifier diodes but also several additional diodes in series with the motors. I think that this is an attempt to loose much of the 5 volts that conventional transformers start out at. So, when you connect the motors directly to a DC supply, it is reasonable that you get a response from the motors at a much lower voltage.
You might want to research the convention that Lionel used for their DC locomotives, that is, what direction they go for what voltage polarity. If you ever had a customer already using the old Lionel convention, it would be nice if the new locomotives worked the same way. Perhaps someone on the forum knows which way they go and we can get the answer easily.
In the MTH protosound 1 units, the light is a constant 5 volt print. The lights are working on 5 volt, no matter how fast you drive the train. I guess that’s why the rectifiers are in front of the motors, otherwise the train would start to run without lights. Also I guess the relais in the e-unit (on trainsound units) needs a certain voltage to work.
If converting into DC you can get sound by adding a european Lenz type decoder (in AC it would be a märklin decoder, I’ve thought of that option too). You’ll be able to switch the lights, sounds and everything using a Lenz digital or Märklin systems controller. They are powerfull enough (up to 5 amps) to control a 0 gauge locomotive and available in europe.
But for me, the most obvious thing was to preorder a convertor (even more because of an MTH Z750 in the mail) and make the trains run on 60Hz AC…