I have ~70 1965-to-present era HO scale freightcars that have plastic wheels, and I want to equip all of them with metal wheels. They were mfgr’d by Athearn (BB), Walthers, Accurail, MDC, and Front Range mostly. I was planning to use P2K 33-inch wheelsets; what I want to know is, Do the P2K wheels not work with any of the manufaturers I listed above? If not, then what other brand of wheels should I use with that brand of car instead?
Thanx in advance…
Ken!
From my experience, you’re safe with the above brands. Be careful to not get the “ribbed back” wheelsets, as they would be inappropriate for the period listed.
Matt
Matt, good to see ya! Thanx for the heads-up…
Ken;
You can NOT go by brand, because even with in a brand different axle lengths are used.
It is VERY important to measure the length of the axle removed from the truck, and use a replacement that is close. Axle lengths in HO frieght cars vary over a range of greater than .150"
Using a “tool” it is relatively easy to increase the opening in a truck for a longer axle. It is not practical to go shorter.
I regularily use P2K, IM and Branchline wheels, depending on the length of the axle removed.
Also keep in mind, that 33" is not correct for some cars - for example 100 ton cars are generally on 36" wheels.
In addition, some of the original wheels may not be 33" wheels, and you may have to shim, or use different couplers. Use a Kadee 205 or similar coupler hieght guage to check every car after the coversion.
Nigel,
If I were to order some of my wheelsets online, how would I know the axel length? Most of the descriptions I’ve read only have the wheel diameter, such as this one: http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/920-21257
Also, could you tell me a little bit more about this “tool” for making the longer ones fit?
Axle lengths do vary. From an old note I had laying around, I have these figures:
P2K – 1.008"
Intermountain – 1.013"
Kadee – 1.018"
I usually swap out and replace with Jay-Bee metal wheels, unless the model comes with it’s own metal wheels – which is increasingly the case. Ironically, I don’t have a measurement of their overall axle length, but they seem to fit well in most trucks.
A few trucks are just too tight for the Jay-Bees – and I suspect the other metal wheelsets I’ve listed. For instance, I had a D&RGW stockcar from the latest run of Walthers Trainline (931-683) that I tried to replace the plastic wheelsets on. The trucks were just too narrow to allow the Jay-Bees to turn easily, so it’s now on the rip-track waiting to get its trucks replaced with some that will hold metal wheelsets. I don’t allow plastic wheelsets on my layout.
Mike lehman
Urbana, IL
The only way you can really tell is to measure the wheelsets. The best tool for that is a dial caliper (or one of the digital ones, if you don’t know how to use one. The dial type, at least in the inexpensive models, is usually more accurate, but the digital will be plenty close and reads off the value directly). The Reboxx web site lists sizes for various manufacturers, but since the same brand of rolling stock might have used different axle lengths at different times, you can’t just go by a chart.
P2K is probably the best choice for most things. If they are too tight and don’t roll freely, or are too loose and slop from side to side, then you need to check into a specific size from someone else.
–Randy
Thanx Randy and Mike!
So it looks like I’ll need to invest in at least 2 new tools: a caliper and a truck reamer (the “tool” that Nigel was referring to). From what I’ve been reading, it looks like longer axels can be made to fit if I ream the trucks, but if the new axel is too short - I’ve wasted my money.
Be aware that not all rolling stock used 33" wheels. Those used for heavier loads, say 80 to 100 tons, used 36" wheels. The problem is that some model manufactures ignored this prototypical issue, something I learned from experience. You may want to stay with the manufacturers original size. If the prototype has the larger size wheel and you want to upgrade, you will have to lower the coupler height a tad. The easiest way may be to file just a little height off the bolster. But be careful, one and one half inch is not much in HO Scale.
Good point. What I think I’ll do is, for each type of car I plan to convert, use a caliper to measure the pre-existing plastic wheel diameter - that way I can’t go wrong (famous last words I know, LOL).
BTW I discovered an excellent web site for matching axel lengths to the different brands/types of trucks: http://reboxx.com/wheelsets.htm
Thanks for posting that reference.
We went through this a couple years ago at the club. The P2K were often too short and the cars out fitted with them would slop back and forth down the track, or sit with a list about 3 degrees to one side or the other. We went to measuring each one, but then discovered the process of swapping the wheels out could bend the truck frames to a “new” size. And the most annoying thing is that it was all for naught. The main reason we went with metal was to help keep the track clean, it didn’t work. We are now discussing going back to the plastic (too much noise, short circuits).
I think I should try to correct a misconception which I’ve noticed has become popular recently:
The “Tool” by Reboxx, Micro-Mark, and others, does NOT ream out the journal, making the axle length required longer. It removes bits of flash, etc, from inside the journal, and when this is complete, [u]stops cutting[/u]. The chart in the link below is the one developed by Reboxx, and lists the axle lengths required to correctly fit most manufacturer’s side frames.
I have converted almost all of my rolling stock to the .088" wide wheels manufactured by Reboxx. I have absolutely no problem with the wheels on my layout. The rolling stock, however, now rolls so freely that I have disovered a number of grades in my flat, grade-free track!
Whoa…! Did I read you correctly… the metal wheels did NOT help your track stay any cleaner!? [:O]
If that’s the case, I just might hold off on this entire project. Are there any aggravating factors in your area (dust, humidity, club members bringing their own dirty equipment) that might be counteracting the benefits of the metal wheels?
The statement about The Tool is correct - it is NOT to ream out the sideframes to make longer axles fit. It is simply to clean out any flash that might be present which prevents free rolling… With better-quality kits and trucks I find it’s mostly not required. But on the ones that need it - it makes a very obvious improvement.
The rest of that - getting MORE problems with metal wheels? That goes counter to most experiences. Shorts? Either they are not good wheels (out of gauge) or more likely, the trackwork is sub-par. More dirt with metal wheels? I’d say there are other factors at work here. Some metal wheels come VERY blackened and that blackening will wear off initially and will make more dirt, but once it wears off and the tread is shiny like it should be, no more dirt. Sure metal wheels are louder - but with my woodland scenics foam roadbed, the noise is like a shusssssssing sound as the train rolls by - and not much noise at all at ‘sane’ speeds
I’ve not had any problems with using metal wheels, and I have no plans to stop my practice of converting anything with plastic wheels to metal.
–Randy
My own experience is that metal wheels have reduced track cleaning to a minimum. I use a combination of Wathers/Shinohara turnouts and MicroEngineering track in HO, HOn3, and dual-gauge, both code 70 and 83. After first taking off the weathering, I minimize use of abrasive (“Brightboy”) cleaning blocks. I have a lot of hidden track, so this is something I pay attention to, but I only get out the Centerline cleaner about once a year. I can’t say that metal wheels are the only reason for my success so far, but they are part of the equation.
As I noted, I use Jay-Bees. I thought that as their blackening wore off, it would show up, but it seems to not build up to any discernable degree. I haven’t noticed it yet anyway, and I’ve put a bunch of new wheelsets in operation over the last two years. YMMV.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
ALL WHEELS pick up dirt and contaiments from the track. Dirty wheels re-depost this on the track.
Metal wheels generally roll better because: they’re hravier, and will track better because of lowering the center of gravity by offering ‘unsprung’ vs. sprung weight.
‘Machined’ wheels have NMRA RP-22 contoured wheels,and highly polished axle points to reduce friction with the side frames.Popular priced ‘stamped’ wheelsets such as P2K have dipped metal or plastic axles, instead.
3.Those using brass track (that tarnished) found metal wheels hade a ‘polishing’ effect,on the tarnish - therefor had a noticable cleaning effect on brass track. Much less so on nickel-silver.
I have both, and find that my metal wheels keep the brass sections shiny from running, but notice no different when picking up dirt or re-depositing same. Wheels get dirty. Oils and dust are the main culprits here. I don’t always turn on my fan on when cooking.
4.What complicates wheel replacements today, is purchase of trucks from offshore suppliers using NEM wheelsets. Even the P2K’s wont fit.
That settles it, I’ll buy the entire trucks instead of just the wheels by themselves. More money perhaps, but alot less frustration! (Thank you Don for the heads up)
Nobody’s mentioned North West Short Line’s wheels yet, so I will. They offer several different diameters 28", 33", 36" etc., they also have a some of different axle lengths as well including replacements for NEM standards.
Personally, I had bad luck with Jaybees getting severals sets with crooked wheels. I’ve used mostly NWSL and Reboxx.
That is correct. Didn’t help a bit. In fact, I just cleaned the entire main line last week - a four hour job. It was dirtier (if one counts how much black gunk comes off) than I ever remember it being in 23 years.
Yes there WERE. I say were because as we went with the wheels we also, 1. sealed the cement floor. 2. added air conditioners. 3. put in a new drop ceiling. 4. Put up dry wall over the rock/cement walls. More than a summers worth of work, and over $5000 later still no clean track. We do have members that bring down their equipment occasionally but it has to pass all the club standards before it can be put on the track. As for humidity, I don’t know. Denver is a semi-arid region and the relative humidity is often like 5%. A humid day is like 30%.
I am guessing the rails are so scratched up from years of “bright boys” that the we can’t actually get all the gunk out of the scratches. Our last hope is to gleam the rails. That will be a night mare in many places were there are loooong almost inaccessible tunnels. After the gleeming the metal wheels might make a difference.
I’ve installed Jaybee, Kadee, and P2k with good success. In most cases, the manufacturers you mentioned will all work with P2k wheelsets without issue (my experience). On a friend’s layout, I installed over 500 Jaybee wheelsets. At least 20% of them were out of gauge as new. With P2k, I’ve found less than 1%. Other things to consider: plastic axle vs metal axle with insulation. P2k has the plastic axle which eliminates the oppotunity to short. Personally, I prefer P2k when considering quality and cost. Unfortunately, Walthers purchased Life Like, so prices have gone up. My club and I were purchasing P2k wheelset 12 packs from MB Klein for $3.49 per pack. We would buy in bulk as it was quite a deal. Unfortunately, the price is up to $5.99 at Klein as a result of Walthers’ purchase.
I am still sold on P2k wheelsets for 33" and 36" wheels. When it comes to 28", I’m back to Jaybee
Rick in AZ