i recently picked up a m r mag, and in it was a mention of dcs. what is the difference in dcs and dcc?
I have DCC but don’t know much (anything) about DCS, which I understand is a MTH system. I understand that MTH locos operated all features on their system but not all functions can be controlled when run on DCC. Unsure whether early DCS locos can run on DCC (per last thread below). And that thread says DCC decoder locos will not run on DCS. But don’t rely on me as I only just looked basis curiosity.
Try google searches:
http://www.ulrichmodels.com/prostores/DCC_Topics/MTH_DCS_and_DCC.pdf
http://www.elmassian.com/trains/dcc-battery-rc-electronics/battery-power-remote-control/mth-dcs
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=12544
MTH makes nice locos but so far I have no interest in figuring out how to make them work on my system, but that’s an individual decision, not meant as a criticism.
DCS is digital command system, it is mths own system mostly used in their O gauge line.
I have some of their HO steam locomotives and they are wonderful, great sound, detail and smoke.
They all run on DC,DCC,dcs. Don’t hesitate to buy a MTH loco, they are top of of the line.
Earlier issues did have some issues with DCC but that has been solved and is no longer an issue.
DCC was originally developed by Lenz in Germany. They gave the specifications to the National Model Railroad Association, which adopted them as the standard for digital control. All DCC system must meet the specifications to be called “DCC.” Therefore, any DCC locomotive can operate with any DCC system, regardless of the manufacturer.
DCS is a proprietary format for equipment from MTH. Although they have made changes to allow interoperability with DCC systems, they are not fully compliant with the DCC standards. MTH does not sell decoders separately from the locomotives, so the only way to get a DCS decoder is to buy an MTH locomotive.
David,
Glad you like your MTH locos, personally you could not give me one.
MTH has from the beginning of the their entry into HO thumbed their nose at NMRA standards and recommended practices, not to mention other long established industry standards.
Their locos run poorly on DC, requiring way more than “standard” voltage levels.
And they have offered only a few “normal” DC models.
They claim their DCS system is superior to DCC but refuse to sell recievers that would allow modelers to use their system in other brands of locos.
Guess what, MTH does not make the whole range of locos I want on my layout, so following their logic, I should restrict my modeling to what they offer to enjoy their “better” system?
I think not.
Many modelers are interested in creating realistic representations of specific places and times in railroad history, not just collecting and running a random collection of “famous” locomotives.
Understand, I have no issue witht the quality of MTH locos or products, but I do find the detail of some of their products lacking for the very high prices they ask.
While some just love the idea of a die cast metal boiler, the MTH Berkshire is a perfect example of why that does not always make the best model. Much of the detail on that model is grossly oversized - like the one foot thick running boards. Mantua, Bowser and others had reasonable thickness runn
Taking it a little too personal aren’t you? There is a ton of products that aren’t marketed for me, but someone else. I’m glad we all aren’t forced to model Atlantic Central per Sheldon’s wishes.
The point is, I would otherwise be interested in some of their products if they conformed to the long established industry and NMRA standards for control.
This is not an issue of era, or roadname or prototype, this is an issue of compatiblity.
Sheldon
I have to side with Sheldon on this. I couldn’t model the Reading using just MTH offerings, at least not in HO. And if the MTH system is so superior as they claim, why don’t they sell the decoders seperately so that I could install them in any loco I wanted, and run my entire layout with their ‘superior’ system? They have a sort of pass through system where you can connect another system to the DCS command station, but that means using my DCC throttle for some locos, and switching to the DCS throttle for others.
With DCC, I can buy my system from one vendor, and buy my decoders from any of dozens of others, and know they will all work. I can buy locos with DCC (and/or sound) already installed, or I can buy decoders and add DCC to other locos I already have. This flexibility IMO negates any of the extra ‘features’ DCS claims.
–Randy
MTH’s locomotives that are equipped with ProtoSound 3.0 will run with DCS, DCC, AC, and DC, according to MTH’s O gauge manuals. I have an O gauge ProtoSound 3 diesel that does indeed run on DCC (NEC system) and AC. I haven’t tried it on DC. I don’t have a DCS system so I don’t know how running on DCC compares to running on DCS, but it runs very nicely on DCC.
I don’t know if the HO ProtoSound 3.0 is exactly the same or not. but MTH says it will run on DCS, DCC, and DC.
Enjoy
Paul
On DC, they are next to useless. Like other DCC/Sound locos that work on DC, you need to turn the throttle way up just to start the sounds, well past the point where a regular DC loco is already moving at a pretty good clip. In just a short bit of throttle, you go from notmoving to full speed - at least with regular DCC/Sound locos. The DCS locos don;t reach top speed until they get 16V, which is more than a normal DC power pack will put out under load (since the NMRA specification is 12V at the loco).
On DCC, they run ok, at least my FA’s do. The remote control uncouplers are gimmicky - they uncouple fine but to couple back up you have to slam pretty hard into the train. The worst part about them is that if there is a power interruption of any sort, they start back up silent until you hit the start function. Problem is, this same F key is ALSO the shutdown key, so when the A and B are running on the same address, and one stalls but the other doesn’t, hitting the function starts up the silent one and shuts off the running one! Extremely annoying since all my other sound decoders just pick right back up where they left off, and otherws will at least restart automatically as long as they are still being addressed. If there’s a fix for this with the DCS locos, it’s a DCS only thing and not accessible via DCC.
–Randy
I run only DC and my MTH steam engines run very well, slow as I want and as fast as I want. I love the sound and smoke, not everybody has to like it as you attest Sheldon. I use a tech 6 from MRC and I can make use of all the sounds, smoke and adjust the CV’s that need it.
No mfg. makes everything that i want so that is why I have MTH, BLI, Athearn, Kato, and many others even some old Varney.
MTH doesn’t make anything I’m interested in so it’s a moot point for me.
Guys,
The OP is interested in the differences between DCS and DCC. Yet, this is starting to look like an MTH bash match. Why?
(BTW: For the record I used to bash MTH but times have changed and MTH is no longer the “bully in the HO sandbox”. Things have advanced quite a bit since 2004-05 when the QSI / MTH rumble was creating ripples).
I’d like to know more about the specific differences between these two command control systems, particularly for HO.
As a former New Yorker, I’m interested in the new MTH IRT subway cars. In having viewed the photos they appear to be more accurately detailed and the trucks are closer to prototype dimensions (the trucks on the older-run HO Proto 1000 subway cars are huge). I hope that the sounds are accurate as well.
They may run as fast as you want, but most do not reach prototypical top speeds at 12 volts.
I run my DC trains with an individual 13.8 volt power supply for each Aristo wireless throttle.
And every other brand, even BLI sound locos (but I remove the sound and decoders anyway), reach reasonable prototype top speeds at my full voltage. In fact, most locos from the other brands made in the last 20 years or so run almost perfect top speeds for their class/type at 12-13 volts - industry standards and cooperation.
Product review after product review of MTH locos has reported only about 1/2 to 2/3 speed at 12 volts DC compared to the same loco on DCS or DCC. And that is typically 1/2 to 2/3 of the prototype speed range for that loco.
16 to 24 volts is not an acceptable standard for HO DC operation, it is way too much voltage for many other brands and will cause damage to them.
AGAIN, this is about compatibility. Compatibility is the cornerstone of all the smaller scales and what lead to the growth of HO over highrail and other systems back in the 50’s.
MTH has treaded HO like is was highrail - it is not - it is a different market.
Most other companies make their locos so decoders are easily removed, or offer “DCC ready” DC versions, etc - but MTH basically says pay the highest price in the industry and use my system, or settle for something that only has some of its advertized features.
Sheldon
Sheldon,
Good info, thanks for posting it. I had forgotten that in DC mode, a good number of HO scale MTH units require higher starting voltages which might make a few DC packs warm up a bit.
Do all of the onboard sounds work in DCC mode?
I’m sticking with NCE DCC, so hopefully there won’t be any issues regarding the MTH subway cars. Below is a photo comparison posted last year. Both the Proto 1000 and MTH versions, imho, look nice. However, I may be nitpicking here but the oversized trucks on the Protos bug me.
Proto 1000:
MTH:
I’d like to go for at least 5 units, but with their price tags I’ll probably be able to get one or two at a time. I wouldn’t mind repainiting a few since the prototypes wore several colors over the years and that’s how I remember them:
AntonioFP45,
Last I was aware, DCC does limit the sounds available with MTH equipment, as DCS has more functions available than most DCC systems, and, IIRC, you can’t move the functions very far on MTH. (If anyone knows a way to totally remap a MTH DCS equipped unit, please correct and explain how it’s done.)
(And, like Sheldon, I really dislike the whole MTH “we are better than Everyone else” attitude. If it’s so much better, [which they can’t prove as stated below], make it NMRA compliant, and make it available to anyone and everyone. This means non-propiatary system. Make the DCS available in decoder form, to fit other manufacturers, and, stop with the 16-18V motors and systems already! If it will not work in EVERYTHING I already own, it is NOT BETTER! Because of this, ZERO chance of them selling me on DCS. And, until the loco’s get changed to DCC ONLY options, even DC ONLY options that I can install my own DCC decoder into, (without spending more on their unit than I can buy a Intermountain or Genesis unit WITH DCC and Sound already installed), a ZERO chance of selling me any locomotives. My one and only HO Scale MTH item is, and will be, a Flatcar I bought at a show. Not any better than any other flatcar in my roster, so not worth the price to me.)
So, to the OP, unless you are going strictly with MTH for the DCS, best option is to go with DCC. (Edit: Especially when you can not run regular DCC locomotives with a DCS control system. They are not compatible…)
AntonioFP45,
It’s not just the higher starting voltage, all sound decoder locos do that on DC, it is the lack of “normal” running speeds if your power supply only puts out 12-14 volts.
Not having any interest in sound, I don’t really remember what the story is on those features.
And, I’m not just MTH bashing (even thought they may deserve it), I have similar feelings about Broadway and their final choice to only sell DCC with sound. I only buy a little BLI stuff if I get the “closeout” price, then I gut the electronics.
I hope the subway cars work out for you, not really something I know much about - prototype or model.
But again, very little MTH has offered is of interest to me. Many of their offerings have been the typical high profile “famous” locos. I’m not collector. Been at this train thing for 45 years and don’t own a Big Boy, GG1, K4, or any loco lettered PRR, NYC, UP, SP, ATSF, etc, etc.
I model the C&O, B&O, Western Maryland, and my freelanced ATLANTIC CENTRAL, set in 1954.
If its not on that list, you won’t find it on the layout or on some display shelf at my house.
I buy “boring” day to day locos like mikados, pacifics, consolidations, mountains, ten wheelers, a few 4-8-4’s, some articulated stuff and first generation diesels. All the locos lettered ATLANTIC CENTRAL are logical for its place and time in fictional history along side those other three.
MTH offerings are mostly a day late and many dollars too expensive to be on my roster. I have large fleet, mostly Proto2000 and Intermountain diesels and Bachmann Spectrum steam - they all run great - on regular DC, none with decoders of any kind.
MTH and BLI don’t want my money - fine. Bachmann, Intermountain, Proto, Athearn and a few others continue to make locos that even if they come with “basic” DCC, they are both afordable and easily back compatible with DC.
Those basic B
Ok, thanks Sheldon. Again, I appreciate the technical info. I’ve checked MTH’s website but don’t see the HO IRT units yet. So the waiting game continues. Fancy wishing, but I wish they’d offer them in non-powered versions. I’d get a 10 car set for sure and repaint some of them into the schemes I remember (minus the graffitti). Although I primarily model passenger and freight trains from Class 1 railroads, my strong interest in IRT subway trains dates back to my childhood as I rode them so often and seeing photos/videos of them stirs up very fond memories of my parents.
Respectfully Sheldon, as before, in reading your posts, you tend to put an emotional slant to them. “Boring day to day locos”? I don’t think that the units you’ve purchased are boring. Boring to who? Your Atlantic Central RR sounds like an interesting layout. Also "MTH and BLI don’t want my money - fine". Realistically, MTH and BLI want everyone’s money but no model manufacturer is going to please everyone. As I mentioned above I wish MTH could offer DC or Dummy HO subway units, but that’s likely not happening so I won’t be getting 10 cars.
BTW: My HO fleet is now mostly LifeLike P2K, Atlas, and Athearn, mostly purchased “New in the box” on ebay. Five are DC and the rest are being converted to DC and DCC/Sound.
“boring day to day locos” - I am largely refering to steam - my point is this, let’s be honest, look at the steam loco selection from both MTH and BLI in the entire time they have sold HO tra
If you are running them with a Tech 6 and controlling the sounds, then you are not running “only DC”. When you operate the Tech 6 in “Dual” mode, it is operating as a DCC command station.