I have an MTH Premium Shay that will not work in command mode on my layout. It works fine in conventional mode. The HS where I purchased the engine, DCS system, and Z4000 transformer has a test layout set up for DCS. The only difference between the HS layout and mine is the track: the HS uses MTH RealTrax; I’m using GarGraves. I took the engine, remote and TIU to the store for testing and all worked perfectly in both command and conventional modes. The HS owner, who is a very helpful person, has no clue what might be my problem at home. He does not use GarGraves. He loaned me one of his DCS engines to try at home; that did not work either.
Does anyone know if there is/are some issue(s) with MTH DCS and GarGraves track? I cranked up the Z4000 to 22 volts, which should be enough to put a conventional engine into space. I put a voltmeter on the track in front (and back) of the engine and got a reading that was within a tenth of a volt of the Z4000 indicator. That should mean it’s not a voltage issue.
I first went to MTH tech support via E-mail, but got a page and a half of stuff to do that suggested to me they did not understand my problem. I found it surprising that they suggested I open the remote control and check for loose “RF modules”. The remote case has no obvious, to me at least, way of opening it. MTH offered no directions on how that should be done. The last thing I want to do is take a screw driver and start prying open a plastic case. Anyway, the HS test proved there’s nothing wrong with my engine and DCS system.
All indications suggest the problem is related to the track, but I don’t know what else to do other than check voltage. When I tell the remote to find an MTH engine, it reads “no engine to be found” followed by “engine not on track” and “check track”. I did all that whi
So sorry you are having problems! Much has been written about the difficulties some people have in getting DCS to work on their layouts. Some have to go to great lengths to get it working, with star wiring, “magic lamps”, and other things, while others like myself have hooked DCS up to my bus-wired layout and it has worked perfectly from day one. I know of no issues using DCS with GarGraves track. I use Atlas track, but I see many club layouts at train shows that use GarGraves track with DCS.
Do you have a long straight track section that you could set up as a programming/test track? If so, try hooking the TIU directly to it and see if DCS can find the engine then. If it does, then we need to look at your layout wiring as a possible culprit.
Don’t take anything apart, yet. The most likely issue is with your wiring. The DCS signal is carried on the center rail. It works better when the transmit and receive pairs of wire are the same length. This is why they recommend “star” patterened wiring. A bus system that has runs of approximately the same length on both sides and is not too complicated will propogate the signal correctly. If you have turnouts and crossovers where the wiring got creative it can cause the signal to get confused. The test track suggestion is the best start. Then proceede back to your layout and try isolating sections that have ballanced pairs of runs of center rail and outside runs and test the steup there. You may need to make adjustments to your wiring to get the signal to propgate properly.
It’s not the track. My layout is all Gargraves and after some tweaking runs fine.I’d follow Chucks suggestion of setting up an isolated piece of track to rule out your layout. But first lets start at square one.
Are you using the Fixed one portion of the TIU or powering it through the Auxillary port ? No voltage applied to either leaves you with no DCS signal. When you power everything up. Make sure the DCS in the remote is turned on to the output you are running off of.
When you power up the RR does the engine sit silent ? It should and you should hear whats called a watchdog signal. Basically a couple of clicks inside the engine. But it should be silent when you apply power. This will show the engine knows it is in DCS mode and it should be able to add. If it still won’t add follow Chuck’s advice and run the 2 output wires from the TIU to an isolsted piece of track.
Are there any TMCC engines, lighted cabeese or passenger cars on the layout when you are attempting to add the engine ?
I know on my own layout if an engine is on a siding and toggled off it will miss the signal and come up in conventional mode. The engine has already been added to the remote and simply pressing startup will put it in DCS mode.
If it is coming up silent are you able to add the engine to the remote ?
Are you able to at least get the remote to look for an MTH Engine to Add ?
Have you tried tethering the remote to the TIU with a telephone handset cord ? This will rule out any loose boards or will tell you if thats the problem.
If you can get the engine to add to the remote. Try running it and at some point perform a track signal test. The test will show if you need to tweak some wiring or perhaps add a light bulb or 2.
Everyone seems to wire their layout differently. Most times DCS will work without rewiring. It is more user friendly than given credit for as far as wiring. I hav
OGR has a excellent video on DCS, Narration is by Rich Melville. He goes through set up, finding engines, trouble shooting, “Read”, even advanced features. Cost is about $19, very good, worth the investment.
I’m posting this reply to your reply because you asked the most questions. However, I do hope Joel, Chuck, Don & Bomber, who also responded, will read this as a response for them as well. Much thanks to all.
Based on the responses it appears my problem is not a simple “switch a wire or two” solution. Before I get into what I have done since my first posting, I guess I better provide a little more detail on my layout wiring.
I suppose I’m using common bus wiring. The main part of my layout consists of three loops interconnected with Ross Custom switches. Within each loop I created three insulated blocks, controlled by simple SPST toggle switches. The center rail wire within each block is connected to a SPST switch; from the switch it goes to a MTH terminal block. Each of the outside rail wires are connected directly to the terminal block. However, none of the track wires are a single length of wire. They are each connected to a long wire with solderless clamp connectors. I don’t remember the name of these connectors, but they come in red and blue (for different wire sizes) and are clamped down on the two wires to be connected. Power is supplied via the red and black terminals on the transformer to the corresponding terminals on the terminal block (before I tried to do the command mode). I soldered the track wires to the underside of the tracks. I tested the continuity of each wire to make sure the solder joint was good.
To try the command mode, I simply connected the terminal block to Fixed 1 Out on the TIU and connected Var 1 on the transformer to Fixed 1 In on the TIU. That’s exactly how my HS owner’s track is connected.
When I powered the transformer, the engine did do a double click , like it’s supposed to. The remote did recognize the TIU, indicating “TIU 1”, I think.
This isn’t an issue of corrosion. The DCS signal isn’t propogating properly. Most Command control systems are not fond of isolated blocks and toggle switches. This is fine for older conventional control where blocks are cut in and out as needed. The heart of most digital command systems is that power is always on the track and digital commands control the locomotives and accessories.
The DCS system behaves more like a data communications network cable. The signal needs to be “ballanced” to propogate properly. It doesn’t want to see chucnks of track appear and dissapear. I would look at your wiring pattern and see what/where you can move wires to allow a ballanced run and I would give very serious consideration to elliminating/removing the block toggles.
Bill sorry if my questions were all over the place. As I thought of things I typed them in. The fact that by taping the wires to the rails and the engine being able to add is at least some progress. Basically what you are dealing with is a Track Signal problem. Nothing to do with voltage drops. The center rail carries the command to the engine. After finding the engine it returns through the outside rail back to the TIU. Thats why the recommendation of equally paired wires. It doesn’t mean other methods won’t work. Good quality wire thats neatly done usually will get you good results.
Your layout is of decent size. Chances are you are running far to much off of 1 channel of your TIU. You stated the layout was divided into 3 electrical blocks. Each loop having 3 isolated blocks.
When you were previously trying to add the engine and getting no results. Were all the toggles turned on so that the signal was travelling the whole layout ?
You mentioned Gargraves track. I’m assuming the loops are ovals. Are the outside rails connected electrically ? Either by jumpers or alternating the feeder wires.
My own layout is 20x50. I have a programming track but most times just put the engine on the layout. It sometimes does take a while. Often times I get error messages but they always add if you wait long enough.
The fact that you have 3 loops is a bonus. This way you can focus on getting just one loop running. Isolate one loop. Rather than trying to get an entire RR up and running. Concentrate on 1 loop. Remove any wires from the terminal strip that feed the other 2. Try finding the engine and starting it up. If it doesn’t work go back to the taping of wires to the rails and get it started. With the wires still in place find the Track Signal mode on your remote and note what it reads. If you got the engine running remove the wires and see if the signal degrades. The whole key to getting DCS running properly is getting a strong trac
If you don’t care/need to control power thru the TIU (variable channel output for conventional control), you might want to consider running the TIU in passive mode. This still requires ballanced wire runs but you could assign your “blocks” to different channels on the TIU. You would power the TIU using a Z-750 brick and leave your existing power supply/track runs in place. You would then add the outputs from the channels on the TIU to the individual “blocks” with paired wires. The DCS signal is outbound on all four TIU outputs it is just the two variable ones can be used for conventional control if you run them in normal (aka not passive) mode.
Thanks for the info. This reply is for Chuck as well, but I am trying to save on duplicate posts.
Hopefully, with all your help, I’ll eventually find the “smoking gun” that’s causing my problem.
I just discovered that I made a mistake in the details while describing my block wiring setup. I did use a single wire for the outside tracks for all three blocks. I ran a wire around the underneath of the table and connected each outside rail wire to it. If I understand correctly, that is a buss method. MTH’s DCS owner’s manual states to avoid common buss wiring. If there is consensus that that might be my problem, I’ll craw under there and change it to dedicated wires.
I did have all three block toggles on, and did not have the other loops powered. My turnouts are not yet electrified.
What are your thoughts on the suitcase connectors? I have had decent success with those in normal wiring use, but now I’m wondering if they could be an issue. My SPST block toggles are of the common household variety and are sort of overkill rated at 115v/15a. Could their overkill rating be a problem? I recently found some micro toggle switches rated at 25v/5a that I plan on using for siding blocks.
I have not yet had a chance to revisit my layout to check on signal strength. That will have to wait until tomorrow since I am the grill master in my household and the turkey is on. Things are heating up fast as the day progresses.
I will not be politically correct here: Please all have a wonderful Thanksgiving.
Type of toggle isn’t an issue pe se, the toggles themselves may be. You have to isolate both the center and probably both outside rails as well. Since we are taking about a communications signal and not just electricity, the signal needs to be ballanced to work properly. This is why you need to use paired/star wiring. If the wire runs on the outbound (aka center rail) and the return (outside) are not the same length you can get signal degradation from ghosting and/or reflections as well as just striaght timing issues.
My layout features a common buss ground. Was wired much in the same manner as yours. One very large loop divided into 4 electrical blocks with toggle switches. The toggle switches were removed seeing the layout was now entirely command. The layout was wired with a 12 gauge buss wire and 14 gauge feeders. Feeder wires are soldered to the buss wire. But are connected to the Gargraves from underneath with push type connectors inserted in the rails. While initially the results were not good. Removing relays that served my track signals seem to solve my issues. The layout yields solid 10’s everywhere. I did use an isolated outside rail for signalling. To this I added paired speaker wire. This rail was in no way connected to the common buss ground used throughout the layout. One side of the paired wire hooks to the once track signals feeder. The other hooked to the nearest center rail feeder that remained hooked to the common buss. I did this, but with it removed, it doesn’t seem to matter anymore. No rewiring was ever done to the yard areas and it works fine. While the paired wiring may be recommended, by no means is it the only way. Most people I know wired their layouts originally in this manner and have adopted DCS without rewiring. When I added my staging yard, I did follow MTH’s guidelines and got great results. Still the rest of the layout works fine.
As far as your suitcase connectors. What I would do. Seeing your layouts oval is divided into 3 electrical blocks. Remove all the suitcase connectors in that block. Run some paired wiring. Radio Shacks 16 gauge quality speaker wire will work fine. Work on just one block of your loop. Try to achieve a 10 there. Then apply it to the rest of the RR.
Thanks for all your advice. First thing I did this morning was change the wiring from the buss system to a star one. In the process, I removed the suitcase connectors and soldered the wires. But that did not change a thing. Still no workee. That was a lot of work, trying to hold the soldering iron above my head waiting for the solder to melt.
However, looks like I found the smoking gun - it was so simple I could cry. On a lark, I reversed the wire connections at the transformer and at the TIU. That was it. Apparently, in conventional mode it does not matter. The engine runs fine; now I’m going to be spoiled and want all my engines to run in command mode. Unfortunately, I have not found any retro fit offerred for DCS. Seems many older engines can be retro-fitted with TMCC, however.
Again, thanks to all that contributed. I’m sure I’ll need your advice again on some DCS or other layout matter.
Glad to hear you got it to work, that’s the main thing. You can get retro fits of DC can motored locomotives that have flywheels for PS-2 (this is the engine side of DCS). They are expensive and you will have to gut almost everything in the engine (lights/couplers/smoke unit) and you will have to program the loco with a download from the MTH web site. You will only have relative speed control becuse the flywheel and gear ratio’s were not designed for PS-2. In most cases you are better off buying a new loco with PS-2 built in.
So glad it’s working. Often times it’s a simple thing. My layout has a lift out bridge. Both sections are isolated and are on 2 TIU Channels. Well it seems the center rail from the bridge came in contact with the yard area bridging the 2 channels. Just happened at some point I blew a fuse. Well what happened was that all the rails were now powered through 1 channel. The DCS signal went south. All 10’s when previously checked. Took about 4 hours to figure it out. Now a piece of styrene insulates the 2 center rails.
You can buy retrofit kits from MTH. Not the easiest of installs for the novice. I agree with Chuck. At times you are better off selling what you have and buying a new Proto 2 engine than upgrading an older one. I think it’s only worth doing on high end engines.