I only have a couple of Santa Fe books with no pics or mention of this. Were trains comprised of heavyweights (with celestory roofs) pulled by a war bonnet painted F7 as a mail train, day coach train, etc.? Either prior to delivery of steamliner cars or after F7s were replaced by other engines?
I’d like to know the same for the Black Widow schemed F7s for SP please.
Thanks.
Yes Santa Fe passenger F7s did haul heavyweights.
Take a look at some of these online links that have photos:
Santa Fe San Diegan Del Mar Specials
There were others trains that had heavweights in the consist and could have been pulled by passenger F7s. These include the Chief, Grand Canyon, and California Limited. There are probably;y a lot more, including locals.
Thank you Matt. I can justify another engine purchase then. I looked around online but hadn’t any luck.
I had one last question. I’m wondering if A/A units were used often enough (as opposed to A/B) to justify them?
I’d rather own another A to have the option of running two separate trains or a 2nd section. If no Bs were available and thiings got rushed was this a likely scenario?
Thanks. I’ll enjoy your links and dig further.
Jim
Glad to help Jim.
As to A/A, on the Santa Fe this is very unlikely. Santa Fe passenger F units only had steam generators in the B units. So, on the Santa Fe, if you needed heat or air conditioning in the passenger cars, you needed a B unit.
In later years they converted some baggage cars into steam generator cars so the need for B units was no longer required. And with a steam generator car, F45 locos could then be used to pull trains because they lacked steam run through lines. Unlike their big brothers the FP45s, Santa Fe F45s did not have steam generators. This is why in later era photos you’ll see freight painted F45s on Santa Fe passenger trains.
Thanks Matt. That was extremely helpful! I hadn’t thought about steam generating with/without B units.
I’ll have to see what that practice was with GN, NP, Milwaukee Rd. and SP as well.
Cheers, Jim
It wasn’t so much a railroad-by-railroad thing. You could put a steam generator in an A unit but it had very little room left over for water so it’s usefullness was limited to short trips with short trains, like commuter trains for example. B-units had a lot more room since the area where the cab and seats would normally go would be unused in a B-unit. Part of the reason the FP-7 and FP-9 was created was to have a longer F unit with enough room for a generator and water without needing a separate unit.
NP originally ran streamlined trains with A-B-B sets, but found that switching the engines onto the train was easier with A-B-A sets. This was true for example at St.Paul Union Depot, where NP engines took over from the Burlington engines on trains coming from Chicago. The NP trains had to back down a wye with the engineer on the outside of the curve so he couldn’t see where he was going. By making it an A-B-A set, the crew could go to the “rear” A unit and run the consist back to the train, then go back to the “front” F unit to run the train.
The GN had steam generators in pretty much all their passenger F’s, both A’s and B’s.
Ed
Thank you Stix and Ed. I’ve been living in the steam world until now… it’s hard to resist streamlined diesels and the infamous Transition Era zone.
I’d like to know the same for the Black Widow schemed F7s for SP please.
Thanks.
Sure did. I rode on an all heavyweight train pulled by Black Widow F’s, the “Owl” out of LAUPT.
Other heavyweight or mixed consist trains pulled by F’s would have included the “West Coast”, the “Argonaut”, the 'Overland", the “Klamath”. and the “Coast Mail”. Those are the ones I can think of off the top of my head…
Andre
Dear Friends,
This brings up a question I’ve been meaning to ask for some time: How far off the beaten track will I be pulling my Heavyweight Passenger Cars with the Alco PA and the powered Alco PB behind it?
I’m not a fanatic when it comes to prototype correctness, but it would be nice to know there is some precendence for this…thanks.
Hi!
Good responses to your question, especially concerning the Santa Fe.
Having been a RR nut since the '50s, I have come to realize that there is very little - especially with a major road - that one can say was “never done” or “always done”. That may be hard to swallow for a purist, but for you and I, that’s great!
Good to know that I have been running my Santa Fe passenger trains prootypically even though I didn’t know it. LOL
Rich
Not too far off the track [;)]
The trains I mentioned above for the Santa Fe, like the Fast Mail, were often pulled by Alco PAs. The Grand Canyon often used PAs as well. The Grand Canyon was typically a mix of streamline and heavyweight cars.
Santa Fe pretty much used their PAs all over, so most trains could be pulled by them. A good general rule of thumb is to keep them off the highest priority passenger trains like the Super Chief or El Capitan, but otherwise you should be OK.
I believe Santa Fe PA (A units) had steam generators. So unlike the passenger F units, a Santa Fe passenger train could be hauled by a single Alco PA (A unit) without a B unit. Same goes for the Santa Fe E units I think (E1, E3, E6, E8m).
SP retired it’s last PA’s in 1967, even at this late date they were the motive power of choice for the Overland Limited which often carried heavyweight head end equiptment in conjunction with lightweight. SP unlike other owners had no concerns regarding reliability late in their careers, all were rebuilt in house by the SP in the early 60’s with the goal of extending their service lives a minium of 10 years.
Dave
Another source for vintage prototype examples are train videos.
The 50’s and 60’s films show that appearances were less of a concern on the regular service passenger trains. While the named premier trains often received the newest , locals were using available equipment to move the passengers.
There is footage of some fascinating combinations of: steam, diesel, streamliner and heavyweight car combos.
