I’m in the process…(7 year project) of slowly but surely helping my cousin with his layout. He has a nice downhill layout of a river coming down from a mountainside and down and across the layout (dropping in height several times). I suggested the idea of having a running water feature (a thin layer of water running over the evirotex he plans on installing) that runs over hus modeled river bed, marina, down a waterfall that goes over a dam, and through a wooden trestle bridge at the bottom of the layout. We could install and conceal a catch basin at the edge of the layout and then pump the water to various locations “up river”. Has anyone succeeded in doing this? and if so what was your trick or method?
Suggestion. Help your cousin build a mock up of a water fall and pond. Then pour some water down it (outdoors or maybe in a bathtub) and see how it looks.
My guess is that he won’t like it very well, but I could be wrong. Regardless, it’s a fairly easy thing to try with minimal time, effort, and expense.
Also, the small amount of water required (at least as I percieve it from your description) would not have any appreciable effect on the humidity in the layout room. Even if it does, a dehumidifier would readily solve than problem. And, as someone said, it is important that the water not run over bare electrical wires and equipment, but you probably knew that.
Expanding on, “Water doesn’t scale,” that thundering Class 5 1:1 scale rapids, modeled in any modeling scale with real water, ends up being a rain ruvulet. The 100 foot tall waterfall hits the rocks below like water poured out of a bowl during the dishwashing routine in the kitchen sink.
The only effective real-water scenes I have ever heard of (in 60 years of reading hobby publications) are places where the water is barely moving - seaports (one with moving ships.) Even then, the moving ships left wakes like a bathtub duck, not an oceangoing watercraft.
Considering the amount of effort required and the high probability of water-related layout glitches, real water features just aren’t worth doing on anything but an outdoor garden railroad - and not really a good idea there, either.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - with a river navigable by kayakers with death wishes)
The famous 1889 Johnstown Flood had the Pennsylvania Railroad’s Stone Bridge, in the distance of the first picture, where it was one of the town’s only structures left standing.
Except for three major floods (1889 - 1936 - 1977) the Conemaugh River is a slow-flowing waterway…
The small submersable pumps sold for aquariums or fountains would be the ideal choice for the pump. They can be found for under $20. If the look doesn’t work out for you, then you are not out very much.
A concern I would have is the water stains created over time. The minerals and such left behind after the system is turned off and the water evaporates, might end up creating some nasty looking water marks. Then again, it might create a realistic looking effect (it was from water).
Was the previous reply suggesting that you model a flooded town? That could be an intersting focal point on the layout. Comical, if nothing else. People boating down the street between houses, sitting on roof tops waiting to be rescued. Of course, no flooded “live tracks”.
Think about those stains you have to keep cleaning from the sink, tub, and toilet or out of the aquarium. One must wonder how hard they are to clean from Envirotex. I suppose you could minimize them by using distilled water and changing it once a week or so. Of course you won’t be able to use Hydrocal or plaster anywhere in the stream bed and you will have to use real rocks in the waterfalls.
In short; try it if you like but I wouldn’t. Then again, maybe YOU will be able to teach US something after you work it out.
I would ask this question on the Garden Railways forum. The outdoorsy types probably do this sort of thing a lot. Yes, their trains are bigger and they use natural greenery, but I’d imagine that flowing water is a common scenic feature in many garden layouts.
As the saying goes," In model railroading, nothing looks less like real water, than real water ! The flow of real water follows the rules of nature. So, on an HO model railroad the water will flow and fall 87 times faster than it should.on the scale model railroad rivers and waterfalls. On one of my previous layouts I used a motor operated loop of wrinkled cellophane strip “water”, over streaked white cloth underloop for a waterfall. It was quite believable. For moving boats on plastic rippled water, I use a fine cranked loop of monofilament line, with an attached plastic wake on the prow of the boat, (that appears only when the boat is in motion). Bob Hahn
The original layout tried to run waterfalls and have running water on it… and it did like some of the other posters have stated. We had an aquarium pump running ours and had to water proof every thing… which leaves a glossy look to your scenery… the pump worked only a short while and died…Tearing out your mountain is not fun… If you plan on having that… make sure you have an easy access to all of the lines and pump because they will require constant maintenance… just like a sprinkler system… you deffinatly dont want to have any leaks appear and ruin the rest of your layout… The added humidity may cause some really cool molds to grow in your mountains,and other scenery as well… Outdoor layouts work fine as the humidity will disspate and the track is exposed to way worse conditionsand designed to handle it … those guys know that it is just part of the process…
It just not worth it… I am redoing the areas that got sealed to get rid of the gloss look, and having to tear out the rusted “pond” that vexes me…as your water will need some place to be caught eventually when the pump is turned off and roung bowls or pans are very unrealistic round or square shape …Also Remember that water does have acapilary action and will find its way into the hardshell eventually if you try and cover up your catch basin…Dont ask me how I know this…[#oops] To me its not worth the extra expense again to have everything water proofed and looking unrealistic… Just my 2 cents worth…
The plan is as follows…We are going to be creating a “mockup” and then test out the water scenario. The idea is to run a thin layer of water on top of the finished/rippled/textured envirotex. The envirotex in nature should be waterproof since it is epoxy and the hydrocal or foam shore line can be sealed with latex rubber or multiple coats of acrylic gloss polyurethane. So we will model the riverbed and its contents as we normally would (Dave Frary techniques) and then run the thin layer of water on the top (1/4" or less). As for the difference in scale versus proto water behavior, I hoping multiple water source points will help to eliminate this (instead of having one hose dummp water down the first upper waterfall, have multiple hoses introducing water into the areas (use splitters/additional hose). These water entry points can be hidden behind scenic elements (behind boat, have hose come through a side wall as a stormwater pipe spilling water into the river, etc.) I’m not too concerned with direct leakage to the underside of the layout…I’m anticpating that this won’t be a problem if we seal all the seams with clear 5 minute epoxy first, clear silicone, or clear liquid nails. My only real concern would be the water containment at the envirotex level, but I’m thinking that at the juncture between the seawalls, embankments, or shoreline can be sealed with multiple coats of clear acrylic poly (will also simulate wet shoreline or abutting objects) with a thin cove bead at the horizontal to vertical juncture. In theory this might just work…if not I have a few other waterproofing techniques up my sleeve…since waterproofing is my business. We’ll give it a shot…at least on the mockup…if we like the results…then on to the full river.
The bottom line is this…unless someone tries it out…how do we truly know that this wouldn’t work?
PS: I wouldn’t be concerned with water stains…a spong
Ironically, I just bought some old MRR magazines at the hobbyshop. One of the layouts had a true water feature and included a paddleboat that was run on some track on the bottom of the river. It looked pretty cool, and gives that bascule bridge a reason to raise. I will try locating the issue later on. IIRC, they used concrete, but then stated they would have done it differently because of the weight. I don’t think you’ll be disappointed with a river, but a waterfall might create a splash problem. Maybe consider a preformed fall ( plexi-glass distorted with heat maybe) and run a thin layer of water on it. If I’m thinking right, the water will follow the plastic, but also try to bead on the surface, giving an ever changing appearance.
I think David said it very succinctly. Nothing else is going to be “real”, the addition of “real” water will look out of place.
Our hobby at this scale is one of approximation, using the real thing in only one aspect can throw that approximation off.
I’m interested to see how your test results go.
I have another, 21st century suggestion- why not set up a small projector and project water movement onto the waterfall and or river? With this, you might be able to not only provide the moving water effect, scaled properly, but sound too!
Actually, what folks are saying is that this has been tried, hundreds (probably thousands) of times. The earliest I’ve seen was a port area in a 1940s issue of Model Railroader. It looked like a dishpan with toy boats. Peope have tried running water, still water, tinted water, etc., etc., etc. None of them look convincingly like water because of the differences in perception due to scale.
Speaking of scale, the salts from the evaporating water will build up in an unsightly way. If you feel like scrubbing the entire water feature every so often with CLR or whatever, more power to you (not sure how the paint an other scenicking will stand up to that). And viscous non-conductive oil splashing around a layout where wheel-to-rail electrical contact and friction is needed for the trains to run seems like a sub-optimal idea.
People have been trying this stuff for about 70 years. You might be able to come up with something that nobody else ever thought of … it just seems unlikely. However, if you feel like spending your time on it, we’d all enjoy seeing the results, good or bad.
Ok, got it. It is the Sept 1977 issue, on the Port Caribou RR & Western Navigation Co. HOn3 layout. He used 2x4 framing with 3/4 ply as benchwork and used a sheetmetal form covered in tar, then cement and stone. The cement was covered in fiberglass . He states that if he did it over he would just use wire mesh and then fiberglass. The riverboat ferry runs on 5" track via shafts and gears to some O scale wheelsets. The article doesn’t go in depth on any problems encountered and only a little on the operation of the river systems. The main track crosses the river on a rolling lift bridge which raises and lowers for the ferry, and an interlock prevents the train from getting washed. I think it’s a really cool idea, and outside of any foaming action, the action of moving water will outweigh any out of scale issues. I myself would try to avoid any splashing water though. Might even be able to find a live micro-plant to live in the water. If I recall, duckweed would end up being about a scale foot or so and would look like lilly pads.
Sounds like you have some great ideas, Bostonian. Since you’re going to try them on a mock up, there really is no downside. History is full of examples where many people tried for years and failed before one man finally succeeded. You might well be one of those who succeed. And please keep us posted, whether it works or not. As Ben Franklin once said, “I haven’t failed. I’ve just discovered thousands of things which don’t work.” Go for it!
It has been tried many times, and doesn’t look convincing. (See all the posts above.)
But you clearly want to do it anyway, and are looking for someone to agree with you, so go ahead and try it.
Is there any doubt that history repeats itself? … Unless you have some new technology, you’re going to repeat the failures of others. But then, you can ignore our advice and recreate our mistakes. Oh well, it is your time and treasure at stake, not ours. What the heck. It’s not life or death. If you’re determined to try, give it a shot and report to us.