We have a double crossover on our DCC layout. When I run a 4 axle Atlas F unit across the crossover, it works fine and no breakers are triggered. However, when I run a 4-8-2 engine across with its locomotive and tender pickups, I trigger the PSX circuit breaker and the engine stalls. Sometimes the engine starts up again and moves forward, but most of the time the engine just stalls. What is happening and how do I fix this problem?
I also have the same problem with a single crossover section of track.
This is what makes me hate insulfrogs. The steamer might have wider treads contacting oppositely voltage rails, shorting out. Slowly run your steamer over the crossover and find the point it shorts. Look for frog points, etc where wheel treads are touching other rails.
The better solution is to electrically isolate the various rails and have relays or manual switches switch power polarity where needed on the track so this does not happen.
If it stalls and then picks up at times, and if the bad circuit detector is being tripped, you must have the issue of flnges or wide tires bridging two polarities at the same time, as dinwitty is saying. Depending on speed and other variables, it will sometimes actually stall, while other times it pauses momentarily, and you may hear a very short-lived high-pitched zing from your circuit monitoring device.
Next time it stalls completely, shut off track power, and then gently back the engine up about 1/4". Do this by pressing on the smokebox front and try not to deflect the smokebox sideways as you gently nudge the engine back 1/4". Take a close look for a wheel that might be making contact with two rails at once. It won’t be any of the pilot or trailing truck axles if you have them, but it will be a powered driver or a tender axle if there are pickups there.
I think in this case you have two options. Narrow the gauge a bit…wouldn’t go there myself since it will likely introduce other problems…on the engine powered axles, or isolate/gap the crossing and power it with a toggle…or leave it unpowered if your locos won’t mind and can still get across that span.
A double crossover is a tricky bit of trackwork, and depending on how it is configured, the solution will be different. I have one that I built using the Fast Tracks jig. The best way I found to wire it combined a DPDT switch and a DCC autoreverser.
If you look at this thread on the Fast Tracks Forum:
there is a post by roadkill_97006 a little over halfway down the page with a couple of pics that show the way I did it. If your crossover is configured differently, you’ll have to think some more!
Already lots of good suggestions but we are answering in the dark here. You really haven’t provided nearly enough information. The answer totally depends on the brand of turnouts, the brand of crossing, how they are wired (specifically is this all hot frog or insulated frog trackage). Is there power to the frogs and intermediate crossing rails from other places other than the points of the turnouts? Are there different DCC boosters on each side of the crossing?
When you say, “with its locomotive and tender pickups” does that mean the steam locomotive pulling power from one rail on the loco and the other rail on the tender or all wheels from both rails? Does the wheelbase of the locomotive actually bridge from the point rails of one turnout to the next?
Thanks guys, any help is appreciated and I will begin implementing your suggestions.
Texas Zepher…good thoughtful questions. I will try to answer some today and some after I get back from the layout on Monday.
Double crossover- code 83 Walther’s/Shinohara…so live frogs…2 different boosters each with PSX circuit breakers … stock wiring with nothing else added
Single crossover- 2 code 83 Walther’s/Shinohara # 8 turnouts…so live frogs…2 different boosters each with PSX circuit breakers…insulators separating the ends of both rails on the diverging tracks . I have tried using an MRC reversing unit on one of the 2 power districts involved and noted no improvement.
Regarding the locomotive and tender pickups…powered from all wheels on both rails.
Interestingly, I ran a Genesis Challenger (all wheel pickup from both rails) through the double crossover yesterday and it had no problems.
When I ran a 4-8-2 IHC through (all engine wheel pickup both rails ,tender pickup front wheels left rail, rear wheels right rail), it stalled and set off the circuit breakers. So, I am wondering if an 8 coupled engine is a problem. Another club member stalls his Genesis FEF there when he tries to use the crossover. Is there trick of painting epoxy or something like that on the inside of certain rails to prevent electrical contact with the backs of the drivers? Which rails would be the likely candidates for this treatment?
I will try to run a Proto 2-8-8-2 through there tomorrow and see what happens.
Again, no problem with an Atlas FP-7 with 4 axles.
Currently, we are using 4 Hankscraft turnout machines to run the double crossover. So we do not have the advantage of the internal switches of Tortise machines. I would be willing to swap out the Hankscraft machines for Torti, if I was certain the change would work. This particular crossover is in a difficult to reach area of the layout
Unfortunately I am not familiar with that configuration. So I’ll leave speculative solution ideas to those who are.
Drat that eliminates my primary idea of what the problem was - unless of course some wire is loose in the loco so the power pickup from the 1/2 the tender is not getting to the loco.
I’m almost finished with my Bachmann Metroliner conversion (from toys to realistic looking models) and had previously decided that I “could” live with the oversized “pizza cutter” wheel flanges. Especially since the trucks are a unique construction and won’t allow the standard P2K, Kadee, and InterMountain axle sets to interchange.
But with the above posts that mention potential short circuiting problems oversized wheels can cause on code 83 turnouts, it appears that I’m going to have to experiment and find a way to retrofit new axles or fabricate new truck housings and transfer the side frames over to them.
The “oversized” wheels in this context is in thickness of the tread - not depth of flanges. The treads are so thick that the back of the wheel touches either the other side of an insulated frog, or the back of the point rail.
Of course this can also be caused by too wide of gauged wheels, guard rails not holding the axles far enough to one side too.
Yes I do understand. I should have mentioned that in addition to having the “pizza cutter” flanges, the Bachmann wheel treads are also wide. So hence, my concern about getting short circuits.
For me it’s one of those things that boggles my mind. Even though intended for the toy market, Bachmann did a decent job on the old Metroliner bodies considering it was 1970s dies and molds. Yet they totally crashed & burned on the truck/axles assemblies. But of course, what’s been done is done. Now it’s a matter of fixing/modifying, or replacing it.
SOUNDS LIKEyou are using #4’s and your engines mistrack. Railroads only use them at ‘Station throats’ and at v. slow speeds, and then they are closer to #10’s.
HO Double Crossovers have inherent mechanical and electrical polarity problems (4 turnouts + crossing) plus are high cost, not to mention ‘dead’ frogs.
SINGLE CROSSOVERS (2 matching #6’s) should work OK . #8’s are ‘high speed xovers. "long engines’ don’t like #4’s. Try a higher quality turnout in a #6.
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In reading this later post: I’m guessing your model engine wheels are ‘bridging’ plus and minus polarized tracks, and shorting. (NMRA RP-25 wheels are wider than ‘scale wheels’).
CHOICE is application of clear nail polish, 'Proto 87 scale wheels or a ‘Fast tracks’ crossover. He sells assembled code 83 turnout samples, and had a 25" length #6 single Xover for about $50 (good deal). I don’t recall price of a double Xover, but He is judicious about getting scale lengths. Keep in mind closely spaced rails (especially oversized 100) can short out with overly wide (model) wheels.
In short, it’s the combination. You may be asking too much from prefab code 100.
NOTE: Shinohara made WALTHERS turnout do NOT live frogs (dead) and as such shouldn’t short out. Shinohara made SHINOHARA turnou
Recheck your track bus wiring, too. It sounds like you might possibly have the two mainlines that you are crossing from/to wired with reversed DCC phase. If you were running straight DC, this would be same as reversed polarity.
a lot of expensive remedys mentioned here and some that will take some time to do. when trouble shooting it is best to start with the basics. my club has a shinohara double crossover that has that same problem with rigid frame steam locos bridging the rails of both polarities at the frogs. it sometimes does it with 6 axel diesels also. this didn’t happen until we switched over to dcc. as previously mentioned the nail polish trick solved the problem in our case. clear nail polish will work well but we like to use the gloss black polish as it can be seen when it must be renewed. we also have peco and atlas turnouts that are doing the same thing and we used the same remedy. it doesn’t matter what the frog number is the rail ends are too close at the frog point. you would think that the manufacturers would have picked up on this and include a bottle of nailpolish with each turnout or correct the problem the right way. ARE YOU LISTENING OUT THERE ATLAS, PECO, WALTHERS?