One of the newspapers here rented 5 different new models of autos. One was a Explorer another was a Altimia another was a F-150 & the other 2 slipped my mind. In any case they drove each car for 1,000 miles in city driving. In each case the mileage they got was around 4 miles per gallon less then according the sticker on the car they should have gotten per the EPA. They intimated that they felt the EPA really does not test each model car & just guesses at the rating they will give. In all cases the actual driving mileage acheived was lower then what the makers says we should be receiving. So buyer beware. [:(]
Alot has to do with how efficient you drive. Perhaps the person doing the driving was a bit of a lead foot. This really affects city milage.
Don’t forget about traffic, stop and go lights. Gasoline used. Regions plays into it as well. I noticed here in the Midwest people tend to drive a little slower then my old home in Delaware.
While I understand what you are saying city is city. So that much of a difference should not come into play in the test the newspapers did no matter if you are lead footed or light footed especially in the lower SE where their is a traffic lite on almost every corner & many old folks who are super light footed & will slow you down anyway. The papers said they are trying to obtain a interview with the EPA red tapers but so far no luck. To me it sounds like collusion between the makers & the EPA to make the ratings higher so the makers can sell more cars. [:(]
Spbed,
Well I don’t know. Your probably right.
They did this ONLY in the cities. I’m sure just like your area our area has tons of traffic lites & on top of it I live in the state that has more drivers 90 or older still licensed & they tend to be very light footed which slows down traffic & should have increased MPG instead of lowering it. [:(]
The EPA calculates mpg by running cars on rollers in a carefully controlled environment. This would be like driving on a perfectly straight, flat, and smooth road without the AC on. These are ideal conditions.
Yes sorry to say their is something very fishy about this. They are attempted to contact GWB 1st EPA boss Chrissy Whitman but she REFUSED the interview. [:(]
Well thank you so much for the input. That means the newspapers thrust is right on the money & the # on sticker has as much value as a 3 dollar bill. I would suspect that whenever buying a new car the wise thing to is if it says 25 you should figure on only 20 that way you will not be disappointed when you have to visit the gas station more then you expected:(]
I still say the way you drive has a lot to do with it. I drive american cars with big v-8 engines, as do most of my friends. I can almost always get much better gas milage when I drive versus when they drive in the same cars. It’s anoying when some of them drive because it seems to me like they are trying to waste gas. Sometimes when we take road trips I insist on driving if I’m paying for the gas.
City driving is the worst. It’s not just the stop and go, but also knowing how to avoid having to stop and go. Where I am right now really sucks for that. None of the traffic lights are timed. And when you slow down early to avoid having to stop, some jerk always cuts in front of you.
Fortunatly most of my driving these days is in a company truck and they buy the gas. I still try not to waste it.
Me thinks if the newspapers in other cities pick up this story & do tests in their city you may hear more about as once the consumers realize they are being cheaper then will pressure Congress or will then make the EPA do things more real like. That is just my opinion. [8D]
I don’t really care how they come up with the city numbers myself. As long as all the manufactures use the same “guage” to measure by. That’s the important part so you can compare between different models. You got to figure they are going to try to use the best case scenario so people think they are better than they really are.
Yes I fully agree. For sure the EPA method is not anywhere near fair to the consumer. [8D]
[quote]
QUOTE: Originally posted by spbed
Yes I fully agree. For sure the EPA method is not anywhere near fair to the consumer. [8D]
I think the EPA is using the right methods to estimate fuel consumption. It is true that performing the tests indoorsand under ideal conditions means their estimates are better than the average driver will achieve. However, if they did not use the current methods and actually had drivers perform the tests out on roads and streets it be would be impossible to make comparisions across different makes and models.
The EPA ‘city’ and ‘highway’ mileage ratings are run using a very very carefully controlled test protocol; in the one case, involving a large amount of low speed driving, and a number of starts and stops, in the other a large amount of faster driving (but not as fast as most folks drive). The test conditions – air temperature, humidity, rolling resistance, etc., are specified quite exactly, and are the same for all vehicles tested, as is the rest of the test protocol.
Thus the test figures are useful to compare various vehicles to each other. No one. Repeat NO ONE has ever claimed that the figures achieved represent what a real driver will get in real conditions. In fact, if one were to actually read the complete EPA mileage rating, one would find that that is exactly what it says.
Unfortunately, it would appear that the average consumer is illiterate. (but so why am I bothering to write this?)
The EPA gas mileage test was and is primarily a smog test. The city cycle is based on driving on Los Angeles “surface streets”, and the highway test is based on driving on the Los Angeles freeways. As to running with the air conditioning off, I was under the impression that if a car had AC, half the test was run with it on, half with if off, but I need to check on this. The “city test” is running on good roads without a lot of traffic congestion – the EPA city test is not the conditions of a traffic jam in midtown Manhattan. The “highway test” is typical of urban freeway with moderate amounts of traffic – the average speed I believe is around 50 MPH and the peak maybe about 60 – it is not 70 MPH plus out on the open road.
Oops, hit Submit instead of Preview.
The other points about the test is that they don’t take cold weather or head or cross winds into account. They also use a standardized fuel that may be a bit richer in BTUs than the oxygenated fuels that people in big cities are required to use. I also heard there is some gamesmanship in that there steps in the “inertia weight” settings of the rollers (kind of like high-school wrestlers dieting down into the next lower weight class), and there is some fudge factor to account of aerodynamic drag.
Anyway, the EPA numbers are not the “real” EPA numbers. The window sticker has 10 percent taken off the city number and 22 percent taken off the top of the highway number to placate consumers who complain they can’t get the EPA numbers. The “real” EPA numbers are still used for conformance to the CAFE standard – it was felt that they should keep the same rules instead of changing them mid stream.
There is another “fudge factor” for manual shift cars. The folks from the car companies were lugging the engine on their gear shifts to get high EPA numbers, and I believe the EPA now mandates more realistic “shift points” reflecting how people who are not automotive engineers drive, and that knocked down manual shift EPA numbers, but the auto companies didn’t complain because manual shift is a small part of total sales. But if a car has an upshift light, they can shift when the upshift light says so and get back the high manual transmission gas mileage rating. I test drove one or two cars with an upshift light, and I find it really distracting and annoying because I know when to shift, thank you, and don’t need this distracting light blinking at me.
I have a Toyota Camry, 1997, 4-cyl, auto, EPA city 23 highway 30. I cheat because I drive this car only during the summer and drive an older car in the road salt of winter. Over the course of a year I averaged 25 MPG city, 35 MPG highway. The real EPA numbers from the Web site are 25/3
If you want real world gas mileage numbers, check Consumer Reports. They produce the most meticulous real world gas mileage numbers I know of.
The EPA numbers are good “apples to apples” numbers. That is, if you’re comparing a car rated 20/25 with on rated 17/24, you can be sure the former will get better mileage than the latter. Much better than nothing. They’re even much better now than they were when the EPA first started doing it. But, “your mileage may vary”. Gee, where did that phase come from?
BTW, my truck was rated 11/16. I keep meticulous gas mileage records. I get 11 in suburban driving (almost no highway) and 15-17 on the higway (at 70-75 mph).
Bought a 2005 Dodge Magnum…V8 5.7 Hemi.
Car weighs 4300 lbs.
EPA sticker was 27 mpg highway.
As I have driven it more and more, the mileage has exceded what the EPA said they wanted…last trip Houston to San Antonio, full tank of gas, five people and all the crap you drag around at Christmas…car got 32 mpg on the way home.
New, out of the box, best it would do was 22mpg…as the engine broke in, it got better and better.
I would suggest that 1000 miles, weather on real roads or a dyno isnt enough to properly test the mileage after break in.
And the car meets all the EPA requirements for California.
Ed
Paul’s commentary is excellent! To add a bit to Ed’s and Don’s experiences and comments (and Paul’s!) I too keep pretty decent gas mileage records (ever since I owned a '55 VW – no gas gauge on that one!) on several rather disparate cars – my ‘commuter’ car, a Honda Civic Hybrid; my wife’s '97 Saturn, my own wonderful '94 Chevy K2500 and, believe it or not, a 1970 Chevy C10 pickup. The biggest single variable on the Honda is air temperature – and it can make a 10% difference from summer to winter (45 mpg – very close to the EPA city – summer, down to 40 mpg winter). But so can driving style (and it’s automatic): my wife gets about 5% less mileage than I do. With the K2500, you can see the weight and drag factors. Empty, it’s not too bad: 12 city/commuting; 15-17 freeway (New York State Thruway in upstate New York). Loaded, but no trailer; 9 and 12. Not loaded, but towing a loaded horse trailer, about the same (9/12). The C10 shows maintenance best (no computers on that baby!): if I get the timing and carb just right, on new plugs, it gets around 18 on the highway (it has the 250 cu.in six). 12,000 miles on a set of plugs/points/etc. and I’m lucky to get 15…
Then there’s tire pressure… and head winds…
As Paul says, use the ratings for apples to apples comparisons, and then drive easy…