I have a new to me (but well used) F3 2356 ABA unit that will run about 20-30 minutes and then it stops dead and my transformer overload light comes on. I can tell the engine has been used quite a bit since its power pick up roller is heavily grooved. What should I look for to diagnose the problem. I am pulling 4 new passenger cars with it.
Not sure as I am new to this hobby, but im sure it is time to strip it down and clean and relube it all. Inspect the “e” unit for signs of shorting and also the wiring. It certainly can;t hurt to do all this even if it does not solve the problem.
That sounds about right… the thermal circuit breaker finally pops after everything is warmed up thoroughly. A good cleaning & Lube will allow you to run the train at a lower transformer setting, making it possible to run for an indefinite time period. A larger transformer, with a higher continuous output rating, will help too.
Your F-3 has two motors with 4 armature bushings, 4 driven axles, 4 spur & 2 idler gears, 2 worm shafts(and 4 shaft bushings) & 4 worm gears, that all need to be lubricated. A good synthetic grease would be ideal(Lucas Red 'N Tacky #2, eg.) for all gears, & synthetic oil for all 8 axle bushings/bearings and 4 armature bushings/bearings.
The trailing dummies also need to be oiled at all 16 axle bushings/bearings.
Once you service the engine, you will be running like new again.
Rob
Well - I stripped the engine down cleaned the gear drives, put grease back on the drive gears and oiled the wheels (axles) and then ran it for about 20 minutes w/o any cars on it and it ran fine. Put 4 passenger cars on and it made it about 10 minutes before it shut down. Since I had not put the shell on it, I felt the engines and they both were warm but not hot to the touch. Any other Ideas or suggestions of what to check?
Thanks
2356
Did you disassemble the trucks? It’s the only way to grease the driveshafts and worms.
What transformer are you using? The bulbs draw a lot of current - it adds up quickly. You will need at least an LW(125 watts) or more for this train. A 1033/1044 or RW will heat up & trip the breaker after several minutes.
Rob
Yes, I agree with Rob that you may well have too small a transformer for the load it’s carrying. I had a similar problem many years ago after getting back into the hobby and finally found out that my transformer didn’t have enough amperage capacity for all that draw (two motors plus lighted passenger cars, etc.).
There is an oil hole for the motors on the top of the motor. Did you put some oil in this hole? This is the only place to lube the motor bearings. Did you lube the idler gear that is on the end of the motor? Did you grease spur gears on the end of the motor that engage the spur gear in the truck? A good test that you have it all done correctly is that you can turn the wheels with your thumb, and they should turn relatively easily. I just lubed my 2353 F-3, and it will now pull the dummy around a loop of O-27 track with the transformer output voltage at 8.5 volts. I cheated a little, though. I also put oil on the commutator which reduces the motor friction. However, your engine should run OK without doing this.
Here are some voltage and current measurements on the F-3 pulling 3 O-27 lighted passenger cars: Slow: 10.5 volts, 3.5 amps. Fast: 12.5 volts, 3.5 amps. The amps don’t change much with speed because most of the drag force is friction, and so the motor torque doesn’t change with speed.
What is important here is the current. If you have a 1033 transformer with a max output voltage of 16 volts, and a rating of 90 watts, the transformer should supply a maximum of 90/16 or 5.625 amps. If you have a 1034 transformer with a max output of 20 volts and 75 watts, the current is smaller at 3.65 amps (75/20). You cannot multiply the output voltage of the transformer times the current to get the power rating of the transformer. The maximum current that a transformer can supply is determined by dividing the power by the max voltage. This means that at half the max voltage the transformer will only supply half the max power. The circuit breaker is set based on current, not power.
3.75, not 3.65. finger hit the wrong key
Tell us what transformer you are using, I bet the problem is not the locomotive but rather the transformer. The dual motor F3 simply draws too much current for your transformer to handle.
For postwar transformers, the watt rating is input power. The 1033 can deliver 65 watts continuously.
Taking into account that the circuit breaker is a thermal type, designed to preserve the transformer & not the train, and the age of the transformer, the breaker will open quite expectantly in the area of 4-4.5 amps when warm.
Rob
I am going to guess that my problem is too small of a transformer. Mine is a 80 watt. Tech II is the brand. But to follow up with what needs to be done to make sure the engine is properly lubricated. I have greased where it is supposed to be greased and oiled where it is supposed to be oiled. The one possible exception to this is oiling the armature. Do you split the motor by unscrewing the horizontal screws on the motor to do that? I put a drop of oil in the holes near the lock down screws, but I have not split the motors. The wheels turn with the pressure of my thumb pushing on it. The front motor turns easier than the back one if that makes any difference.
There is nothing to oil at that end. The oil hole in the housing is for the motor bearings/bushings.
I inject synthetic grease(Lucas Red 'N Tacky #2) into these reservoirs until it starts to just sling off both bushings… it’s remarkable how much this quiets down the motors and smooths them out, especially on F-3’s & Berkshires…
Rob
I don’t think an 80 watt transformer is going to work very well. The circuit breaker is a thermal device, and as the transformer warms up, it will trip at a lower and lower current. I have this problem with an old Type V that is rated at 150 watts. It has 4 knobs for 4 trains, but it won’t even run two decent size locos very long. If something jumps the track and shorts the output, the breaker warms up and then I have to let it cool down for a few minutes before I can run the trains again. Solution was a pair of KWs.
i also have some F3’s (2333) that are having issues. first off the power unit’s horn does not work at all. when i hit my horn button on my transformer, i just get a loud electric buzzing from it. i checked all my wiring and connections and can’t find anything wrong.
secondly it runs very loud. i’ve oiled as much as i could and it’s still a loud growler. i know there should be some noise, but when i’m running it i have to yell to anyone standing near cuz of the noise. also a lot of e-unit buzzing in neutral. also it runs very slow, and to get it really going seems to take a lot of voltage, i’m using a LW by the way. usually between 14-18 volts (give or take) and finally, there is a lot of “ozone” coming from it while running. a little bit of a burning smell, and some very very faint smoke… but nothing seems to be burning or melting…
i’m a bit at a loss with it right now… so ANY help and guidance is appreciated! i have cleaned the commutors and brushes, oiled, lubricated and tried to do as much general maintenance on it as possible. i’m considering dismantling it and doing a super scrub and cleaning.
Ben
Did you disassemble the trucks? It’s the only way to grease the driveshafts and worms. You must lube all gears & bearings/bushings on these mechanical beasts.
I have a set of 2333’s on the track right now. I injected synthetic grease(Lucas Red 'N Tacky #2) with a needle & tube(from an inkjet refill kit) into the oil hole reservoirs on the motors, while they were running, until it started to just sling off both bushings… it quieted the motors right down. They really creep along smoothly at low speeds now, too.
Check all of the axle bushings for wear, too. The 2333’s are 60 years old, & mine are from the first run, and if the bushings are worn the wheels rub on the truck castings causing a lot of friction.
Another problem that creeps up on old F-3’s is that the staking for the field laminations comes loose, and they sometimes actually come into contact with the armature. They must be re-pressed. There are work-arounds if this is not possible.
Rob
thanx for ur reply rob, i took the trucks off the frame but didn’t go any further than that. i will have to take them off and go further then right? all i did was put some grease on the long driveshaft. i will also have to try your trick of greasing the resevoirs while running. the laminations seem to be fine, nice and tight, i haven’t spotted any seperations.
has anyone ever replaced the axle bushings?
Right… take the two screws off, & the brass cover plate, and you will see the rest of the gearing, as well as a good lot of dried out caked-up grease as well.
Rob
Rob –
Do you ever clean the old grease out of the reservoirs? If so, how do you go about it? And, where do you get the Lucas Red 'N Tacky #2?
Thanks, Martin
Always.
Toothpicks.
NAPA
Rob