Figuring Out Erie RR Signals for Layout

Model Railroader Prototype information for the modeler
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If you had signals in those locations (facing both directions), I think that would be true. An exception which would have to be considered would be having the switcher work on and off one of the mains, while having the other open for through traffic.

A thing to consider is whether the signals facing inwards are ABS (Automatic Block Signaling–block occupancy detection and indication). If they are, they will reflect occupancy of blocks OUTSIDE the interlocking. This means that, if there are no trains outside the interlocking for a goodly ways, the signals will display green. Even if the switcher is plopped in the middle of the interlocking.

Another thing to consider: we know the tower operator is very concerned with and the boss of trains getting INTO the interlocking. Normally, I think, the operator doesn’t much care about them leaving. They are, after all, not supposed to linger. He just wants them gone so he can prepare for the next train through.

And that, to me, brings up the question of why there would be signals facing inwards unless they were ABS.

Except that both Dave and Ed don’t think so. The

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Don’t really have any pictures.

What we are really talking about here is where the NEXT block signal beyond the interlocking home signal is located. A lot of that depends on the speed and distance of the signals. If its a big interlocking or they want to pick up the speed quickly then the next block signal will be at the opposing home signal. If that isn’t a concern then there won’t be a leaving signal. Most crossing interlocings are small so its not necessary to have a leaving signal.

Only if the size and speed warrant it, otherwise the interlocking signal is the block signal. If also depends on where you want a train to stop if the signal is stop.

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Point of terminology, those are called “home signals”. The outwards signals would be leaving signals.

No. The leaving signals are automatic, they would indicate the condition of the block beyond them. I really see no reason why with such a short interlocking you would need leaving signals.

Once again the ONLY time the home signals will display anthying other than stop is for moves that you physically can’t make on your layout. There is no move on your layout that a train or engine could make on signal indication.

Model railroaders love this arrangement, real railroads absolutely hate this arrangement.

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My suggestion on handling signals on this layout:

It’s been proposed to use dummy heads on signals that point in a direction that is not visible to an operator. This makes sense ONLY if it stays true in the future. If this small layout is ever moved somewhere else or turns into part of a Free-mo module (a swell idea, I must say), those dummy heads might become visible. Please consider putting working heads there instead, just in case.

That said:

I would put the outward (Home, as Dave says) signals in. Of course. I would also put the leaving signals on the far bridge only. After all, they’re going to be the most visible. These signals would most likely be occupancy signals for the next block. In HO reality, there IS no next block. And, of more interest, the signal indications would have zero effect on the switcher(s) operating on the layout. What I’d do (cause it’s fun) is have the lights on those signals change from one indication to another now and then. My suggestion is to use a homemade contactor with a motor and a segmented disk. So, from time to time, the signals will change. You could also use some off the shelf timing relays.

When a leaving signal is green or yellow, the switcher may procede into that block (the little bitty tail of which is showing). When it’s red, we can call it a “restrictive red”, and then proceed at very reduced speed. Which is pretty much what is happening with the green and yellow indication.

Another way to explain these leaving signals would be to posit a lift bridge a short distance to the right. If you used RYG colors for the leaving signals, they would then be tied together in their colors. I wonder, if one is modeling Erie, what that railroad would have used for this special indication. Well, well. Look what 15 seconds of on-line research turned up:

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This has been a very informative discussion and I thank you all for your suggestions. They certainly have given me a lot to think about. The layout won’t be changed into anything else when built and will take up all the room reserved for it in the basement. Part of the bench work has been completed and the top is ready for roadbed and track, but that has to wait until my diesels have been upgraded with new gears, couplings, etc. That should happen in the next couple of weeks and then it’ll be time to get working on the layout’s 2.5’ x 7’ section.

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If you want dwarf signals those would be the tracks I would interlock (make operated by the tower), put dwarf signal for moves leaving those tracks, entering the main track. All the industry switches I would make hand operated with no signals.

The engine facility could go either way, you could put a leaving signal there and make it an interlocked, or you could make it hand operated.

If you wanted more color, you could have the signals so when all the main track switches are normal and the main track is clear you get clear signals on the main tracks (well technically clear in one direction).

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The interlockings that I am familiar with have all Home signals red, as a rest state. Which means, if no trains are coming: red (these day, dark, but what fun is that?). If no train is coming for a day, the signals will be red (in all directions) all that day.

If there’s a switcher working inside the interlocking, the Home signals should be red, also; if for no other reason, because it’s an occupied block, and the ABS takes over. An exception would be if the other main was expecting a train.

Signaling: it sucks you in because of the colorful lights. But THEN you get fall into the rabbit hole of “why?”…

Ed

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Erie1951 – Looking at your diagram in the original post, the two tracks running diagonally are “the mains”, is this correct?

If so, the high signal bridges at the lower left and upper right are correct, as they define the interlocking limits.

However…

None of the industrial sidings would “rate” signal bridges. The switches in such places (at least in real life) are going to be hand-thrown. In 32 years of running trains here and there, I don’t ever recall seeing a signal bridge with high signals to govern switching on industrial tracks.

The switch just beyond the crossover (upper left) might be a power switch, but it would be governed by a low home signal (aka “dwarf”), everything else “inside” would again be hand-thrown.

Same goes for the industrial spurs on the lower right. Again, one power switch (the one that diverts from the main), low home signal, but all hand switches inside.

Same for the 2 tracks at the bottom center.

Sometimes we even find hand-operated switches -within- interlocking limits. I remember one in particular in the North Bronx as a part of CP 212 on Metro-North (for a bakery warehouse located almost directly under the 241st St. bridge). That little siding (only held one or two cars) even had its own low home signal. If you placed a car there and “ended up in the clear”, the dispatcher would then display the signal to “come back out” even though the switch it governed was hand-operated.

Regarding your 3-aspect home signals, the aspects you posted above aren’t quite correct.

For crossover moves on the main, assuming medium or limited speeds, your aspect would be “red over green over red” or “red over flashing green over red”, respectively. Red over red over green would be “slow clear”, not used much on the mainline.

For the low interlocking signals governing movement

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So here’s what I’ve decided on for the layout signals:

The signals here are a reference for the signals that I’ll use on the layout.

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Here’s the location of the signals on the layout using the reference above:

Thoughts and comments are always welcome!

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Why are you using approach mediums?

Approach medium is used in higher speed territory, where you want a longer distance to stop a train. The progression of signals a train would see would be clear-approach medium-approach-stop. I just seems like a curious choice, it says you are going to stop the train about 4-6 miles away.

I would suggest just using a clear g-r-r.

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Suggestion:

Since the gas station, bar, diner and grocery store will not be rail served, the track immediately behind them doesn’t need to be an industry track.

Make that track the lead to East Yard and flip the engine house so it doesn’t enter the main, it enters the lead. That way switching around engines doesn’t interfere with the main track or the interlocking.

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In this case, the layout is set in an urban area with additional trackage leading to a DL&W junction and to another Erie yard not that far away. Perhaps an “approach slow” would be a better choice? That would be Erie RR’s Rule #284, Y-R-G.

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There must be a reason you are using these odd signal indications? Any indication that has the term “approach” in it is slowing a train down to be prepared to stop and next signal or the signal after that. What are you trying to do that clear or approach doesn’t do? Remember clear doesn’t mean “go 60 mph”. Clear means go track speed. If the speed limit on the track is 20 mph, clear lets you go 20 mph.

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Thanks for helping me think this out, Dave. You’re right. “Clear” would make sense and I wasn’t taking track speed into consideration. The track speed in this area wouldn’t be more than 20 mph because of the short distances involved. The Erie signal for clear would be G-R-R, then, at track speed. This is all new to me and I appreciate your comments and questions.

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Here is a link to Erie signal/switch diagrams, which show signal locations, number of arms (heads), and CTC panel components in interlocking situations: http://www.rrsignalpix.com/erie_prints.php

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Interesting stuff, Rock. [tup]

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Thanks for the suggestion. I rearranged the track at the textile mill to accommodate a track so that switchers can enter the diesel house that way. Also, the signal heads facing into the crossovers will show the “clear” indication for trains leaving the yard area not to exceed track speed.