I had a question regarding first gen. full hood streamlined-type diesels, ex. F7, etc. I almost never see these locos in prototype form or on people’s layouts as one single A unit, they always seem to be followed by one or more cab-less B units. When I do see a single locomotive, it is usually in a train set and that idea has caused me to find it strange to run one by itself on the layout even with a short train, it just doesn’t look right. I just wanted to know what prototype railroads did with these locos, especially with smaller trains.
part 2 - How many cars…we’ll go with freight cars for this one…did it typically take on the prototype until a second diesel (of any first gen. type) was needed? Thanks!
Rob,How about NYC’s habit of running 4-5 cab units together? I seen F7A,GP7,F7B,GP7,RS3 mu’d on the NYC…
When I worked on the PRR we had a F7 as power on a urban local.
Modelers seem to be more concern about how their locos are ran then the prototype.
part 2 - How many cars…we’ll go with freight cars for this one…did it typically take on the prototype until a second diesel (of any first gen. type) was needed?
That would depend on the ruling grade,curvature and the train’s tonnage.
Yes, you are right…modelers like myself tend to over-anaylize the way things “look” on the layout!!! I model the PRR in the mid-late 50s, definately not down to the rivets though…more of just an base to start off with.
It just seems strange to see one of these types of locos running alone, but they say there is a prototype for everything. ----Rob
One reason they tended to run at least in pairs (typically back to back A units) was to eliminate the need to turn the engines at the end of a run. They typically wouldn’t be found on small tonnage trains, because GP’s of the same vintage could make the out and back runs without the need for a turntable or wye.
Soon after the introduction of the F series, the inability to run over the road “backwards” proved to be a significant problem. This led to the development of first the BL-2, and a bit later the GP-7/9.
Rob,One thing I learned about railroads in my 9 1/2 years working as a brakeman they use what ever engine they need to get the job done…Of course engine weight and track weight and bridge load is taken into consideration.However,I seen PRR RSD7s on urban industrial branch lines that had light rail and the rail would pop and crackle under the engine…
Soon after the introduction of the F series, the inability to run over the road “backwards” proved to be a significant problem.
Lee,Indeed…The day we had that F7A on the local we made a reverse move back to Cleveland Ave yard like so,cabin,cars,F7A…Of course we had to flag protect any crossings that wasn’t equipped with gates or flashers.
When F units were delevered from EMD, they typically were as a multiple unit locomotive with ABA amd ABBA sets being common. These sets did not require truning in terminals.
In later years, the A units often had MU connections added to their front ends. Next, units were often intermixed with road switchers such as GP7’s and SD9’s. In the 1960’s, the second generation units would be intermixed with first generation units. The lash-ups made interesting consists to the delight of railfans.
I do have a photo of a CB&Q F3 operating as a single unit.
My opinion on this is a bit different. I am certain many if not all railroads at one time or another ran a single FA, F3A etc. on trains. But I believe that most of the time one did not see this because originally the F units were intended to be over the road freight. The power produced by a single unit was no where close to that a single steam loco that it was replacing. So they had to run ABA, ABBA, and larger sets in order to move the trains. Then most railroads ordered the F units in AB sets “permanently” hooked together with a draw bar. Many had ABA sets configured in this manner. As railroad needed more flexible combinations like an ABBBA set that the original sets were broken up and had the “permanent” draw bars replace with real couplers.
As others had pointed out as the units got older there were already GP and RS type units on the market that were much better for this service. So instead of relegating the Fs to this duty, railroads like the Santa Fe continued to rework them for helper and lesser mainline service (like Newton KS south through Wichita). The Santa Fe F-units were retired from this service to the Cleburn TX shops and made into CF7s. Santa Fe was still running F units on passenger trains on the eve of Amtrak. Very few ever ran all by themselves. I cannot ever recall seeing an F-unit on branch line duty on any of the railroad I grew up around (Santa Fe, Rio-Grande, Missouri Pacific, Colorado Southern, Rock Island, or Frisco). But like I said before I am certain it happened. When a railroad needs a loco they are going to use what is available to get the job done (I saw a photo of an O-1 Mikado on the point of the Empire Builder once. Regular power had broken down).<
Around here (Boston) single F units pulled commuter trains well into the 1980’s.
The longer the freight train the cheaper it is to move cars. One 100 car freight costs little more to run than a 50 car freight. So, the railroads worked at gathering up enough cars to fill out a long train. This makes typical over the road freight trains long enough to require more than one F unit.
Road switchers were prefered for the short peddler freights that could have been pulled by single F units. The road switchers gave the engineer vision in both directions making backing moves safer. So you didn’t see many single F units pulling short 25 or so car trains, the road switchers got that duty. In fact the road switchers quickly grew to have as much power as the F units, and more versatility and by the end of the 1960’s that was all anyone was building.
Plus, running a multi unit lashup of matching F units is cool and so that’s the way we run them.
Most railroads ordered ‘covered wagons’ in 3-4 unit matching sets with an ‘A’ unit on each end. As time went on, these engines were mixed/matched with other units. A single F unit by itself on a local was usually pretty rare. However, the Soo Line used F’s in way freight service right up into the 1980’s on the branch lines in North Dakota. Most of the branch terminals had a small turntable or wye that could turn the engines. It was rather common to see a single F unit with a 15 car train and a wide vision caboose on the end of the train. Places like New Town, Pollock, Max, & Fordville, ND were known ‘hangouts’ for F’s. The end started in the late 70’s with the delivery of GP38-2 engines. The previous 10 years had been SD40/SD40-2 orders and the big engines could not run on the branches. The F’s were ‘trade-bait’ after additional 4 axle power showed up. In 1979 the SOO still had something like 43 active F units!
On my 50’s era Milwaukee Road layout, I have 4 F’s and 3 FM C-Liners that are still in road service. GP9’s usually hold down the ‘patrols’ and the branch assignments.
Trains and Locomotives had a show on the early F units. They said since the first diesels only produced 1500 HP, they were sold in 2-3 unit sets to equal the pulling power of the large steamers they were replacing.
Train sets are cheap. That’s probably the reason for just a single F A unit.
F units in general rarely ran alone. They only had 1,750 (the F7s and some others) horsepower, so any train short enough to be hauled by a single F would most likely be a local freight to switch the industries along the line. This would not be hauled by an F unit, because an F unit is single ended, not suitable for switching, and more importantly, not equipped with footboards (save for NYO&W’s F3s in a failed attempt) or exterior walkways which are required for switching.
Normally a railroad would use a switcher or roadswitcher for any duties requiring switching.
Normally they ran with others to provide enough tractive effort to move the train. Also remember that early diesels weren’t all that reliable, and if you had a one loco train, and that loco broke down, the train would stop and tie up the mainline until a replacement loco could be brought out.
Also remember that the FT diesel, which started it all and was predecessor to the F series, was actually permanently coupled as an A-B-B-A set. Some railroads (notably the Boston & Maine) removed the drawbar between the two B units so that they could use the locomotives as A-B sets. This was very common B&M power back in the day.
There are some exceptions of course, but multiple F’s was the norm.
I don’t think I have ever seen a picture of a single F unit pulling a train on the Santa Fe. For freights you couldn’t switch a small local with an F and you couldn’t pull a long train with just one. On their passenger trains they never could because all of the F-units with cabs that they purchased were purchased without steam generators. Only the B units did. Small passenger trains were usually pulled by a single E unit instead, or an Alco PA.
El Cap, if you hop over to the Classic Trains forum you’ll get to see a photo of a brand-new Santa Fe train powered by a single E unit - the inaugural run of your screen name!
The first F units, the FT’s of 1939-40, were designed to be made and sold only in A-B sets. The cab and booster units were connected with a drawbar…in fact, there wasn’t even a door that you could close between the units!! Soon railroads wanted to be able to run separate A and B units in different combinations as needed, so the design was changed to allow for couplers at both ends of B units.
Remember too that the original FT A units had no space for a steam boiler (for passenger service), it had to be in the B unit. Later F’s could have a boiler but it had to be very small, so especially in cold weather areas you might see an A-B set of F’s on a short passenger train, using two units more to provide adequate steam than being required to pull the train.
That being said, it wasn’t that uncommon to see an F unit by itself. If you search around long enough you’ll find pics in books and on the internet of such trains in operation. However as noted, F’s weren’t really designed as way freight road switchers, so wouldn’t be the first choice in many of those situations.
Plus remember railroads tailored their rosters to what they needed. For example the Minneapolis and St.Louis bought EMD switchers to work the yards, F units (usually semi-permanently connected in A-A or A-B-A sets) to work mainline freights, and RS-1’s (without m.u. capability) for…well basically everything else.
Santa Fe used single unit FTAs in switching and local service until sufficient quantities of Geeps could be delivered. These FTs were equipped with footboards IIRC, I am not at home but there are photos in Valley Division Vignettes of these units in Central California.
I said one unit alone couldn’t pull a long train. I realize old F’s and GP’s had very similar HP’s.
And allow me to rephrase:
F’s were not ideal for local switching and thus usually not used for this.
Brakie, did you ever hear of any railroads running F’s backwards for long distances (50 miles) or more?
Also I vaguely remember seeing pictures of cab units used in commuter service that had a window and controls on the back end for the return trip. Similar to having controls in the back passenger car like metra has today, except this was in the back of the engine. Was it the Rock Island? I believe they were E units. Does anybody recall these?