First layout – Start small?

Model Railroader General Discussion (Model Railroader)
1

I’m just getting back in to the hobby and was hoping for a few words of advice… I do have some experience with models and weathering and have some old HO and N stuff from like 15 to 20 years ago – most of the HO stuff doesn’t work and the N stuff has the “rapido” (I think that’s what they are called) couplers which I detest, so I’m starting from scratch.

I have about 12’ x 11’ of space available for my layout, but was wondering if I should start smaller for my first time around? I’m also struggling with HO versus N. I really like the “N Scale on a Door” in the “Model Trains Step by Step” special and was thinking that maybe that would be a better starting point than a bigger layout. But if I decide to go with HO for my bigger layout, the N stuff (mainly the cost of the engines) is not reusable (of course). I don’t want to get into an N versus HO debate – I’m sure some people are religious about their scale of choice - but was wondering what pros and cons the scales have from others’ experiences. I really like the detail and sturdiness HO provides. Also, the HO track looks more realistic to me and I’ve heard Code 55 in N can have derailment problems. I just hope I can be happy with what I can do in HO in 12’ x 11’. Oh yeah, cost is a bit of a factor and HO looks to be a little cheaper – but maybe I’m looking at lower quality stuff. I saw a few HO engines for $30 or so and I think that included DCC.

Also, I’m not necessarily looking for a specific prototype, but I am leaning toward doing something from the Cincinnati, OH area where I’m from. I’m more a diesel fan than steam and I’m thinking more in modeling the present - or at least within the last 40 years. I’ve just started researching/railfanning but I guess NS and CSX are what I’d lean toward, oh and I see a lot of UP engines nowadays. If I went for older time frame, B&O and C&O/Chessie would be nice I guess.

Thanks for reading! Any advice is welcome!

2

[#welcome] HO scale is the most popular and is most likley the way to go. I think you could have a decent HO layout in 12x11. You could go double-deck is you want.

I’d think twice about those $30 DCC engines (most likley Bachmann standard)

Brands that are top of the line-
Atlas, Kato, Proto 2000 from Walthers (formerly P2K from Life-Like), Athearn Genesis, Stewart, several others

middle of the line (but still very good)
Athearn RTR, Proto 1000 from Walthers (same drive as P2K, but less detail) (formerly P1K from Life-Like), Athearn “blue-box” kits

brands to avoid- Bachmann standard (DCC for $30), Model Power, Life-Like standard
Bachmanns spectrum line is questionable. I’ve got a 2-8-0 and have had terrible luck with it. I’m not too pleased with their customer service either.

DCC is generally the way to go. Might I suggest MRC’s Prodigy Expres for a system. It looks very easy to use.

If you have questions, just ask

3

First off, [#welcome]

You have done an excellent job of specifiying what you want. You have apparently given this some serious thought. My advice is biased toward HO because that’s what I’m in to. The one choice you haven’t expressed is whether you prefer mainline or switching. In N scale, you could do a LOT of heavy mainline running and long trains. In HO, you would be more limited unles you go to multiple levels.

Again, wlecome to the hobby and I’m sure others will chime in with additional information and suggestions.

Tom

PS Pick up “Track Planning for Realistic Operation” by John Armstrong

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The way I look at it is How Fat are you fingers? mine are fat but I have tweezers and a magnifying glass. [(-D] that is what I used to determine weather or not to go with N or HO… I’m going with N and I have an area about 18x10’6 with a 8’8x12 workshop area where I will be putting my staging yard and my work bench for building my models.

and the main reason I’m going with N scale is I want to be able to model scenery and have longer runs and be able to have space between towns.

5

Like you, I came back to the hobby fairly recently after a long hiatus. I went with HO because I just felt like N was too small. The selection of products in HO is also the largest for any scale.

In terms of how ambitious your first layout should be, it really depends on your personality/temperment. A small layout will be completed much faster and will require a lot less planning and you will learn a lot of new skills during the building process. However, it will also probably be less than satisfying and if you really like the hobby you’ll end up starting over and doing it right (this is what I did). If you have the patience, I would recommend going all out on your first layout. Do the research, design a track plan, think everything through. I rushed through building my first layout and ended up frustrated and dissatisfied. This time around I’m taking things slow, done a lot of reading and research and am trying to make everything as good as possible.

6

Let me add my welcome as well…

I would be tempted to think about what you can afford and want now, but with an eye to the future. Your end point in a few years may be very different. If you want to work on a budget, why not consider building your layout in sections. Then as time and funds permit you can grow into the space. The small door top layout you describe could be desgined to allow for future expansion. Starting small also lets you get better quality stuff as you wont need as many locos etc. Anyway, just a thought equally applicable to HO and N. I am an HO’er as well. It’s the right size for me, not too fidly to deal with. I also like the bigger selection of items, though N is catching up.

7

N scale…you’ll so much happier with a actual decent length train. Rix sells a tool to align your cars on the track each time perfectly. I use Atlas code 80 and it is super reliable, no derails yet. The truth is you could have a couple towns and a small yard in your space and it would be tons of fun. If you are worried about getting bored quick, HO stands for ho-hum, lol. I had a friend with a 3x6 layout in HO and it was basically a loop and two sidings, one station and a mountain on the corner. Now he pulled that board up sold his HO off and has two towns, a mine spur and a small 4 track yard!

Take a second look at N scale. I personally have found proto 2000 locos for 20-30 Canadian on ebay brand new that run like katos! Atlas and katos arent much more for around 45-55 CAN w dcc most times! And we all know how good they run!

Canadian Shield

8

Go for it…in HO if you are middle-aged or older. In fact, consider S-gauge.

I would advise you to think of what you want in the way of capability, and then spend about 30 hours reading about what the hobby, in all scales, has to offer you. Some things have changed, others are very much the same. For example, building benchwork and adding topographical layers and scenery is largely the same, although many of us like using extruded foam for our table/bench tops ,and the same foam layered and carved to make hills and gullies. But many of us still use cardboard strips, chicken wire, crumpled up paper towels, plaster of paris, and so on.

If you’d like some inspiration, check out Joe Fugate’s website following the Siskiyou line.

The big hurdle, though, is to temper your verve and read such bibles as the late John Armstrong’s “Track Planning for Realistic Operation.” No layout of the size you contemplate will be an asset for long if you can only run trains in circles. You’ll need other diversions, including servicing your locos, picking up paid tonnage, and so on.

Spend some time here, read-in, make a list of druthers and questions, and then begin to plan that all-out effort that will hopefully leave you with a masterpiece.

Oh, and learn about Digital Command and Control (DCC). We’ve never had it so good.

9

HO or N? Aside from feel - you already seem to like HO better - era, length, and type of operation are the more rational reasons for preferring one over the other.

It is harder to do a steam era layout in N than in HO - not impossible, there are some good steam locos and steam layouts in N, but it is harder. Early steam - pre WW1 - is harder in any scale, and especially in N. Multi-unit diesels are much more easily achieved in N than in HO.

Longer trains are another trademark feature of N. With your space, a 7ft long train is about the practical max. In HO, this is a modest steam engine or large diesel, 11 40ft cars (fewer if you use longer cars), and a caboose. In N you get 22 40ft cars in the same space plus loco and caboose.

If you are a railfan type operator - you like to see trains rolling through specific scenes you recreate - N is easier to make the scene look the way you want. Again, can be done in HO, just not as easily. If you prefer to build kits and/or superdetail locos and cars, HO is more practical.

Cost-wise, HO will take less “stuff” to fill the space, so should cost less. However, the extra details you will be tempted to add will run the HO layout right up to the cost of the extra “stuff” in N.

Whether to start small or build the room-filling layout from the start depends on 4 inter-related aspects of you:

Time - how many hours per week do you realistically have for model railroading?

$$ - do you have the $$ up front for the benchwork for the whole layout? Will you be buying ready-to-run (RTR) trains and track, or will you be building most of your stuff from kits or scratch? The RTR will require a more substantial hobby cash flow, but don’t under-estimate the cost of tools, materials, and details for the kit/scratch route either. The important thing is whether you have the $$ on a recurring basis to sustain your use of your hobby time. If $$ are critical (and they are for a good portion of

10

It’s not as important to start small as it is to start expandable. A good layout plan will include continuous ops ,(some kind of circle) much switching possibility, logical pick up oldies-drop off new cars, with spurs in the right direction for mainline operations, hidden staging for entire trains, a place to turn trains, room for non-train scenery, and at least one long straight track to nowhere, preferably two.

Later on, you will access this “module” (right now your whole layout), by these two tracks, plan them well and build them in from the start.

HO or bigger. Old eyes need lots of light to even see HO properly when working small details, N gauge is for the perpetually young, a subspecies which I no longer belong to.

Figure out why a railroad even needs to be there, what industries, a logical flow of material into and out of the entire region, whatever they cannot produce locally, decide on a primary and secondary periods to model, old steam new steam treansition or newer diesel, then get some track planning software and draw up at least 50 layouts before driving the first nail or screw.

11

Once you decide on gauge, the next thing to do is come up with a track plan. I would immediately go download one of the freeware programs either RTS from www.atlasrr.com or XtrkCad, or both for the same low price. Then, start playing with ways to use the space. (My first rule - you can’t reach more than 30 inches from the edge, and you can’t work very well more than 24 inches from the edge.)

Assume you have that entire 12 x 11 foot space to work with. Note the doors and windows, but consider a lift-out bridge to get past things like that if necessary. The important thing is to claim the space for the railroad, or it may end up with a washing machine or bookshelf in it.

12

Thanks for all the great feedback so far! I really appreciate it! Being 33, I’ve still got pretty good eyes. Lots to think about. I’ve been reading a lot since I got interested again back in December.

I’m not sure about requiring a long main line or not yet - guess that would be a big deciding point and I do want some type of continuous run, but switching is important. I am leaning toward HO after the last trip to the hobby shop. I figure even in HO with staging I might be able do medium size trains on the continous loop. RTR engines and track, at least at first. Probably DCC if I can afford it.

I’m not sure about the double deck idea - I’m short, 5’8" and the helix would take up a good deal of space.

I do wish MR would show more of the “behind the scenes” stuff of the layouts they feature - more of the staging and helixes would be nice, as well as whole shots of the layouts. I know that deters from the actor/stage metaphor, but would be a big help.

I’ve got the whole 12’ x 11’ space to work with - the basement’s decent sized and washer/dryer, pool table, office, etc. are already in place. I’m thinking of some type of U shape, but could do a complete O if I did a duck under or lift out.

I just can’t decide on a scale! It’s driving me crazy! [:D] I’m dying to buy an engine and some track! (I know to be patient while building though!)

Thanks again for the replies and letting me ramble… I wake up early in the morning and just have trains on my mind! Computer geek and now train geek - not sure how my girlfriend can stand it!

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Youi’d be surprised at the number of computer geeks there are on this forum!

Tom

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“Being 33, I’ve still got pretty good eyes.”

Yep, and being 43 only happens to other people, eyes requiring reading glasses, more light, minor cuts taking longer to heal, belts undergoing mysterious longitudinal shrinkage, etc, been there, done that, got the T-shirt.

Figure on two years to make a layout presentable, and another ten to really polish it. Figure on doing everything, benchwork, tracklaying, scenery, ballast, etc. wrong at least once before getting it right.

Now you’re 45, same age as me. HO, trust me. Not to the Geritol stage yet, but this rapidly disintegrating carcass warns me it’s coming. I’m already looking into G scale.

:slight_smile:

15

On the scale question.
The smaller the scale the more trains and longer trains you can run in a given space.
The larger the scale, the more “presence” the trains have and the easier the parts are to work with and see. The trick is to find the happy medium between the two. For me that is S.

Pick the one that appeals most to you now, you can always change later or even do two or more scales. I started in HO, went to O, then to S.

For a given area the cost tends to be about the same no matter what the scale. Smaller scales mean more track, more engines, more cars, etc. So the lower cost is offset by the higher volume. In fact N scale could end up being the most expensive. That said, HO does have some economy lines - if you stick to them. Athearn, MDC, Atlas to name a few.

If $30 engines are what you can afford I would recommend you stay with the low end HO for now. To further keep the cost down I would recommend a layout of 5 x 10. An around the walls layout in 11x12, assuming 30" depth is 90 sq ft of layout vs 50 sq ft. for 5x10. With the cost of wood and plywood that is significant. If you offset the 5x10 to one side, you can later add a branch or yard on a shelf.

Good Luck
Paul

16

I’m staring down the barrel of 45 and have no problems with N-scale. One thing to accept, though, whether you are 23, 33, 43, 53 or 93 an Optivisor is an asset with some of the finer work.

Now the longitudinal shrinkage of the belt…that is another story.

17

Have a look here: www.hogrr.com.

By the sounds of the space you are looking at it might help. The project is in HO, but others are looking at following the concept in other scales.

Always a trade off, but I prefer the presence of HO. But you go with what you like.

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N isn’t anymore expensive than any other scale, because of proto 2000.

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You said that switching is important. Me, too. That is what pushed me to HO. I was looking at N becuase I like “fleets” of things …engines, hoppers, gon’s, etc. But the actual operation of the turnouts and couplers and such was too tedious and failure prone to me in N. For an intensive switching layout, anyway.

I started small, and am very happy I did. Years ago I started a relatively large layout … never could finish it … and it started to get on my nerves. I guess that depends on your personality … I’m just not able to have large unfinished things around.

I also agree that you should start right off with DCC, you’ll be happy you did. It will be much fun having more than one engine switching a yard or industrial area …with the engines working in close proximity.

I also agree on buying quality engines…especially if you like switching. Even starting with two quality engines would be great. You could buy non working junk engines from ebay or someplace just for scenery at the engine shop or on a siding, etc.

My 2 cents.
Greg Ross

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For me, HO is as small as I want to go given my eyesight and manual dexterity. Even in HO, I have a difficult time with kits that have small parts. I also think N scale is just too small visually. The trains are overwhelmed by the scenery but that is really just my own preference. I’ve seen some outstanding N scale layouts and I’m sure it’s proponents think the size of the trains is just fine.

If I were you, I would build a sectional layout that could be moved and at least some of the sections used in a larger layout if later on you think that is what you would want to do.