Hi all
I have seen photos of locomotives on flooded tracks. I can see why a diesel would be just plain stuck (electricity and water don’t mix well), but wouldn’t the high water make a steam locomotive explode, simply because it is so much colder than the boiler? Similar to a light bulb blowing up when it gets wet?
Or is this a silly question? [%-)]
Probably the heat of the boiler warmed the water enough so as not to be prone to explosion unless it was dumped into a pool or river of cold water. The real problem was dousing the fire which rendered the locomotive useless, dead.
Most steam locomotive boilers were insulated - usually called ‘lagging’, and usually asbestos [:(] , covered with a thin outer steel ‘jacket’ - so the water wouldn’t directly contact the hot boiler, even if it did get that high. But henry6 has mentioned the usual ‘upper limit’ for that kind of thing. Also, water that high would be inundating the cylinders and more importantly, the valve gear and bearings for the wheels and rods - that would contaminate / adulterate their lubrication, which would not be good, and so would be avoided if at all possible.
And ‘even if’ - the boiler steel was and is a lot tougher against that kind of ‘thermal shock’ than lightbulb glass. Consider a boiler in a sub-zero Canadian winter - that air is a lot colder than most floodwaters - though someone should point out that from a thermodynamics perspective of ‘thermal mass’, even that air won’t ‘chill’ the boiler as much or as quickly as the floodwaters.
I didn’t think of insulation. Makes sense. I also remembered reading about locomotives that would scoop up water at speed from pans between rails. And that didn’t blow anyone up (that I know of!). So I guess the “water on a hot lightbulb” effect doesn’t apply to a steam locomotive.
Now, with a diesel, just how wet can the traction motors get? They must get plenty wet at speed in the rain. And if they do get wet, does something just trip and shut the whole thing off, and when everything is dry, be on your way? Or are we talking big-time repairs needed?
JD
News photos of the 1965 Mississippi flood showed a Zephyr being towed by steam locomotive at Savanna, IL. The CB&Q called out kept for excursion power. As I recall, traction motors would ground out in the water. No problem on steam.
The show did not last long. The river rose high enough to close it down.
I also remember seeing photos of Rock Island steam called back to switch Keokuk, IA in the early 1950’s (1953?). Same river, same reason. Once again, steam trod deeper water than diesel electric.
A lot depends on the type of high water. If it’s standing, up to a certain depth, the railroad might chance it. If it’s moving water, there is every possibility that the roadbed will be compromised, so nothing will move.
Here are water depths listed in the Eighth Edition of the NORAC rules:
[quote]
Engines and cars equipped with roller bearing journals must not be operated through water, except in emergency when authorized by the Dispatcher. In such a case, the movement must not exceed 2 MPH, and water depth as measured from the top of the rail must not exceed the following:
Not sure what the class differences mean, but there are big differences! And they measure from the TOPS of the rail, too. So an RDC can go in 7 inches of rain in addition to the height of the rail, right?
The other factor of running in water, diesel or steam, is to detrmine what is under the water, if anything… Going on blind faith that the track and its support system, from banks and bridges to ties and rail, is still there would be more of a decision maker for me than whether the fire’s gonna be damped out or the motors shorted out!
The locomotive didn’t pick up the water. The scoop was under the tender. If the tender wasn’t vented, the incoming water would cause the tender body to expand, possibly popping rivets, or welds.
R. Staller
Most carriers have train handling rules that limit diesel electric locomotives operating through areas where water is 2 inches ATR (above top of rail) or less. Over 2 inches ATR and operation should not take place. When water is higher it can be ingested by the cooling systems for the traction motors and has been previously stated…water & electricity don’t play together well.
Steam engines could operate in water up to the level of their axle bearings as they did not require ingesting cooling air to keep their ‘traction motor’ cool. If one considers a 33 inch wheel to be standard size, then a steam powered train could operate through areas where water could be approximately 2 feet ATR. Since the level of the boiler and firebox would be above the top of the wheels of the trailing truck on the engine, they would not be near the water. Valve gear may get in the water, but it’s normal lubrication should protect if during ‘short term’ immersion. None of this would take place at normal operating speeds.
It used to be that if the water were no more than four inches above the top of the rail it was permissible to operate a diesel engine; are engines now built with less clearance above the track for the motors?
I have read that back in the steam era, operating steam engines in flooded areas was commonplace in some areas that experienced seasonal flooding. I’ve seen pictures of this and wondered if Diesel Hydraulic locomotives could be used in the same manner. I realize, however, that the railcars nowadays are much heavier than steam era equipment, so operating over a submerged ROW may not be a wise idea as the track structure could be weakened…
I remember reading that the K-M’s were allowed to run though water 12" ATR on the D&GRW, where diesel electrics were only allowed 3" ATR.
That’s actually what made me ask the question. I saw something similar in an old issue of TRAINS.