Joe - maybe I will have the privilege to be the last contributor to this discussion. I am away from my home and reading this via WiFi. I wish to thank you so much for continuing this string so far.
I started 2 years ago in modeling and decided on a Zephyr which I am learning and hope to improve. Your forums sure add to that.
Look forward to seeing you in A\naheim if I can get back from Panama by then. I am missing my trains!
Cheers, Jake [8D]
MRC Wireless:
I have previously made very positive comments regarding the MRC Wireless system so it’s only fair that I keep you posted regarding any negative experiences. Yesterday my LCD screen went completely blank and wouldn’t come back on.
So, today it’s on its way back to MRC for repair. At the same time I’m asking for their free upgrade that will solve the 4-digit addressing problem that they have a fix for as I do want to start using 4-digit addresses. I’ve had the unit about 3 months.
I still like how this system works for my operations but hope that this isn’t a sign of on-going problems.
joe, still got some questions on dcc systems. I appreciate everything you have doen so far. I am leaning between 2 different systems and have a question. How easy is it to program cvs. I have never used dcc before. I purchased bachmans dcc first .now I am installing decoders and the soundbug decoders I have require you to program cvs so bachmans out. I guess my question spans several systems. How easy is it to program and understand cvs.
edit—the 2 systems I have narrowed down to are digitrax zypher and nce powercab. leaning more towards nce right now mostly because I want a hand held throtle. and dont have the funds to go with the digitrax supercheif.
My 2 cents… even with my small 3x5 layout I -love- having a walk around throttle. I would make that a top priority. If you go with the Zephyr, price how much it would be to buy a small handheld throttle to go with it. More so since my small layout is divided into two scenes with a scenic divider… but even without the divider its really nice being able to stand eye to eye with my locomotive as I operate it.
I have the Empire Builder for reasons which were compelling six years ago, primarily the cost and availability of a computer interface, a non issue now. I also mistakenly thought the computer interface would get around the lack of read back of CVs (not an issue with zephyr or chief) which was only partially true. If I was buying today I would probably have gotten the power cab. In fact, I am still considering the switch at some point when I can afford it, pending a test drive of the power cab, especially if I decide to go to radio control.
Chris
For starter DCC systems that have good growth potential, a couple of the two best choices are the Digitrax Zephyr and the NCE PowerCab.
To help you decide, here’s some pros and cons for each.
Digitrax Zephyr
Pros -
2.5 amp capacity is slightly greater than the PowerCab
Zephyr can run one non-decoder equipped DC loco in addition to locos with DCC decoders
Zephyr can use a straight DC powerpack as an add-on throttle
Cleaner expandability path than an NCE PowerCab
Includes blast mode programming for use with modern sound decoders
Going into program mode does not shut down the layout
Uses Digitrax’s LocoNet
Largest DCC system user base means local help is more likely
Cons -
NCE PowerCab
Pros -
Uses virtually the same interface and command sequences as the ProCab
User friendly plain english button labels and easy-to-follow prompts for commands
Uses a more modern and convenient walk-around form factor
Often available for a slighly lower price than the Zephyr
Can be taken to another layout or club using NCE and becomes a ProCab throttle
Uses the more feature rich “smart consisting” than the Zephyr
Includes blast mode programming for use with modern sound decoders
True wireless upgrade that does not require plugging in to acquire locos
Cons -
jfugate,
A slight correction: the Zephyr can handle two “jump” DC throttlepacks, not just one. Also, the 2.5 amp vs. 1.7 amp capacity difference is more than “slightly”. The PowerCab has 2/3rds the power of the Z. I would agree that it doesn’t matter for most home layouts, but when you’re talking about a 33% difference, that’s more than “slightly” (IMHO).
As for pros/cons additions, apparently the Z can handle more DCC throttles than the PC.
I would also say that the Digitrax radio, while simplex, has a greater range (no need for repeaters). The NCE radio, while duplex, has a shorter range and can require the use of expensive repeaters. I have also heard (from an NCE owner at my club) that the Digitrax 9v batteries will last a lot longer in use than the NCE AAA’s.
Also, I would mention that the PC’s multi-line display is far superior to the Z’s 4-digit LED’s.
Paul A. Cutler III
Weather Or No Go New Haven
Paul:
Thanks for the clarifications.
I feel system amp capacity is less of an issue than people make it out to be. Amp capacity, put simply, limits the total number of locomotives that you can have running on your layout at the same time.
The 1.7 amp capacity of the PowerCab allows up to 7 non-sound locos to be run at once – while the Zephyr will allow up to 10 non-sound locos. If all locos on your layout have sound, then it’s 4 sound locos (just barely) simultaneously with the PowerCab, or 5 sound locos simultaneously with the Zephyr.
Most people who go with a starter DCC system will have a small layout and most of the time will be running 1 or 2 trains at a time – hardly the 7 locos at once that the PowerCab allows.
So I consider the amps limit in practical terms to be “slightly more” on the Zephyr. If that extra 1-3 locos makes a big difference to you between the PowerCab and the Zephyr, then you need to move beyond a starter system.
Joe,
You’re forgetting our N-Scale friends. Those differences can become quite substantial to them. And what about the guy (I forget his name) who drops in on the Digitrax list from time to time and runs his entire basement-sized layout with a single Zephyr and no boosters?
And I have to ask - Can you really plug 7 cabs into a PowerCab system to run those 7 locos at the same time?
Steve
I think the difference is even less substantial from a “does it matter” point of view in n-scale where loco will draw .2-.3 amps at most and likely won’t have sound. You are talking, conservatively, around 5 locos for Powercab concurrently which seems plenty for a starter system. I think that if the current rating for either of these is an issue then maybe you should be looking at a more powerful system.
Still, I was surprised that both units had less then 5 amps which I had mistakenly thought something of a standard for HO/N boosters… and I suspect the difference is less one of cost and more one of creating a gap between “entry-level” and “full” products. On the bright side, less chance of a short melting something. Indeed, I would like to find a way to turn my 5 amp booster down to 2 amps on my current (no pun intended) layout which will never have more then 2-3 locos.
I think the two biggest issues a user needs to decide in choosing these is ergonomics, do you prefer hand-held or the “power pack” format, and how the software/documentation comes off to you. Both require some time actually using the unit which, while not easy in this age of scarce under-supplied hobby shops, would be the best way to buy.
On a personal note, I had not realized Powercab didnt support DC. I have several locos I don’t have decoders in that I like to run for friends. I don’t like the buzzing noise and it can’t be good for the motor, but for the occasional gee-whiz (which is all it is for my non MRR friends) its a handy feature.
Chris
My layout is 10x14 double track loop with a 12x16 L shaped extension. I ran it with my Zephyr for years and had no issues running up to ten loco’s at a time, some with sound with 3 throttles until I repaced it with a Super Chief. In my opinion the Zephyr is a great starting point and will do everything you would want it to do. Being expandable is great because you can add throttles as your bank account lets you. If I had to do it all over again I think I would have just sprung for the Super Chief right from the start. One good thing though about the Zephyr is that if you do go to a bigger system later on you can still use the Zephyr as a throttle, I use mine in the yard and because its a stationary throttle the yard is the best place for it.
Nope, only the PowerCab plus one extra cab in the basic PowerCab – so two trains at once max with the out-of-the-box PowerCab.
You can, however, run multiunit diesel consists (not uncommon on a diesel era layout), and get up to 7 locos running at the same time spread across two trains. For instance, on my Siskiyou Line, I typically have 3 units on the point and a 2-unit mid-train helper – and with two trains, that’s 10 locos right there.
COMPARISON OF STARTER SYSTEM EXTRA CAB EXPANSION OPTIONS
The Zephyr has the advantage with regard to cabs … it will take two additional cabs out of the box, and you can also connect two additional high quality DC power packs as throttles. You could run up to 5 separate trains with a fully loaded Zephyr. Not bad!
Either system can get more sockets for additional cabs with the purchase of additional UTP panels (universal throttle plug panels) for $15 each. Of course, then you have to foot the cost of the additional cabs.
NCE basic engineer cabs (Cab04p) costs about $70 street price … while the Digitrax basic engineer cab (UT4) costs about $65 street price.
The NCE full-featured throttle (ProCab) costs about $125 street price, and the Digitrax full featured cab (DT400) costs about $140 street price.
So the Zephyr out-of-the-box has a one-DCC-throttle socket advantage over the PowerCab – the Zephyr’s DC powerpack option is nice, but I view it as transitory and don’t recommend it as your long-term DCC throttle solution.
As to individual add-on throttle prices, the two systems are basically a wash.
P.S. It’s interesting how all these trade-offs can work – to me a lot of this is basically a wash, and you should just go with the system vendor yo
Tony list the Zephyr at $160.00 and the Power Cab at $150.00. If you add the cost of a UTP panel to the Power Cab you end up with a street price of $165 for the Power Cab and I am sure someone else will come up with different quotations.
What puzzle me is the third slot added to the Power Cab, with an UTP panel does it means you can have three throttles plugged to the Power Cab at once? I do own a Power Cab and I am sure two throttles are the maximum available.
[quote user=“jfugate”]
…
COMPARISON OF STARTER SYSTEM EXTRA CAB EXPANSION OPTIONS
The Zephyr has the advantage with regard to cabs … it will take two additional cabs out of the box, and you can also connect two additional high quality DC power packs as throttles. You could run up to 5 separate trains with a fully loaded Zephyr. Not bad!
Either system can get more sockets for additional cabs with the purchase of additional UTP panels (universal throttle plug panels) for $15 each. Of course, then you have to foot the cost of the additional cabs.
NCE basic engineer cabs (Cab04p) costs about $70 street price … while the Digitrax basic engineer cab (UT4) costs about $65 street price.
The NCE full-featured throttle (ProCab) costs about $125 street price, and the Digitrax full featured cab (DT400) costs about $140 street price.
So the Zephyr out-of-the-box has a one-DCC-throttle socket advantage over the PowerCab – the Zephyr’s DC powerpack option is nice, but I view it as transitory and don’t recommend it as your long-term DCC throttle solution.
As to individual add-on throttle prices, the two systems are basically a wash.
P.S. It’s interesting how all these trade-offs can work – to me a lot of this is basically a wash, and you should just go with the system vendor you prefer. No matter what system you chose (Digitrax, NCE, Lenz, or EasyDCC), you should be pleased with the performance. They’re all good systems.
But the throttle slot issue is a case in point. Sure, the NCE PowerCab has one less DCC throttle socket out of the box than the Zephyr. But the NCE PowerCab typically sells at a street price of $140, while the Zephyr’s street price is around $160. For $15 you can get a UTP panel to go with your PowerCab, and now it has three throttle slots to the Zephyr’s two – and you’ve still saved yourself $5 on the Zephyr’s $160 street price.
So it’s larg
Yes, I stand corrected. Just adding the extra slots isn’t enough.
Thanks for the corrections, Robert. So much for my ability to digest the manuals …
Just so it’s clear – the Zephyr out of the box does have a much larger max throttle capacity (10) than the PowerCab (2).
I don’t consider the Smart Booster to be a wise investment unless 4 cabs is all you ever will need. If you ever expect to need a full PH Pro system, you’re better off to bite the bullet and go to the full PH Pro without stopping at the Smart Booster. Once you move to the PH Pro system, the Smart Booster becomes nothing but a boat anchor – and a waste of money. You can’t use it with the PH Pro system.
Digitrax has a cleaner expansion path with the Zephyr, clearly. You don’t end up with stuff you can’t use later.
The limitation on throttles, and the less than optimum upgrade path are why the PowerCab will probably not be on my short list. I think that at some point I will want the capability to have more than four throttles. At least the plan will easily support that! So, I will either start Zephyr, or just skip a step and fo Pro Cab/Powerhouse system.
I have to say, that the engineer in me really doesn’t think much of the PowerCab’s method of having the booster integrated into the cab, either. I guess one could say the Zephyr is the same, but without the portability, but I still don’t like it. So many things to consider!
Hi Joe,
A fellow at our club was getting rid of some older MRR mags and I picked up the entire 1997 edition. I’m sure you remember those issues as they outlined your Mushroom Siskiyou railroad.
In the article it mentioned you were using Lenz. I know you recently went from CVP to NCE so I was wondering, if you could contrast the three different systems and why you migrated. I’ve read alot about your move from CVP to NCE but have not seen anything on the Lenz. I’m a Lenz with CVP wireless and really happy with it. If I were to start over today, I’d probably go NCE, but I’m not entirely confident as to why.
Best,
Joe Daddy
PS got vol 5 in the mail yesterday, waitin til some qual time to take it in!
Joe:
I bought my Lenz system in late 1993 in preparation for displaying my layout in the 1994 National Convention in Portland, OR. Lenz wanted to have a prominent layout on the layout tours using DCC so I got a great deal!
THE LENZ SYSTEM
I picked Lenz because at the time, a third party was building some simple engineer throttles with a large throttle knob – and no other DCC system at the time had my desired super-obvious engineer throttles, so I went with Lenz.
From 1993 - 1997, we used the Lenz system intermittently to run trains during work sessions or to run trains while showing the layout, or to test some new equipment. But no serious operation sessions during this time period. I mostly experimented with new decoders, trying to find a decoder that gave me good loco performance tuning and good lighting effects.
At the time, I standardized on Digitrax decoders – first DH120s, DH121s, and then DH142s, and finally DH163s. In later years, I started to get a few more buggy decoders from Digitrax, and I found their implementation of BEMF less than satisfying, so I started looking at decoder alternatives. I settled on the D13SRJ from NCE as a great fleet level decoder that gives excellent slow speed performance for $12 each. I have yet to find any better fleet level decoder for the money.
We started regular op sessions once the my layout’s mainline was complete in 1997. The Lenz system allowed putting locos in more than one consist, so I created double-ended consists for my loco lashups and my operating crew loved them. I did find the Lenz system’s command sequences for consisting and other common programming functions to be a bit hard to remember without consulting the manual, so I made myself a “cheat sheet” to make doing these key sequences easier to remember.
The Lenz system worked very well when we used it, and running locos with DCC was a dream-come-true. I never had to think about wiring the layout for cab control … I just mad
MOVING TO EASYDCC WIRELESS
By 2000, the Lenz system was 7 years old and starting to malfunction more. Plus enough had changed in the DCC landscape, I elected to relook at what was available and consider options. To me my options were between a serious system upgrade of my aging Lenz system or change to an entirely new system to get major new features not available from Lenz.
At the time, wireless was making its debut, and only two systems were in the running: EasyDCC or NCE. NCE was getting bad press about promising delivery dates and their wireless throttle prices seemed higher than EasyDCC’s. Lenz had no wireless offering at the time, and Digitrax’s wireless was still “coming”. EasyDCC’s throttles looked simple, had a prominent speed knob, and were shipping.
So I sold my Lenz system and all my throttles, which made a nice dent in the price to install EasyDCC. In short order, I had wireless EasyDCC up and running.
At first, we would lose control of at least one train per session with the EasyDCC wireless. A few months into using our new EasyDCC wireless, CVP released an upgrade. I installed the upgrade and poof! Problem solved. Our EasyDCC wireless reception was rock solid and remained such throughout our use of the system from 2000 - 2007.
I’ll discuss my recent move to NCE wireless in my next post.
MOVING TO NCE WIRELESS
By 2007, a couple of my wireless EasyDCC throttles were malfunctioning, yet when I would send them to CVP, they would send them back telling me there was nothing wrong with them.
In the meantime, CVP released a major upgrade to the EasyDCC system that rendered my current throttles obsolete. Also, I was in need of moving beyond the current 8 throttle system limit. So to upgrade my now aging system to the latest stuff and get more than 8 throttles (the new upgrade moved the limit to 16 throttles on dedicated frequencies), I priced all the stuff I would have to replace (new command station EPROM, new receiver EPROM, add a second receiver, and replace my obsolete throttles), the price tag was pretty steep.
So I elected to go looking again at system options, since times had changed again in the world of DCC. Programming on the main was now main stream, so the EasyDCC power pack form factor for the command station was looking rather dated. Also EasyDCC had moved to really expensive display throttles ($230 a pop), or non-display throttles using keys like * and # to send commands. Finally, EasyDCC had continued to add annoying and unnecessary restrictions on consisting that threw a real clinker in my double-ended consisting.
It turned out that replacing all my EasyDCC system with NCE equipment was cheaper and a full-blown EasyDCC upgrade, and I could offset the cost of the NCE upgrade by selling off my EasyDCC system. As a bonus, NCE recently added “smart consisting” to their system, which meant my beloved double-ended consists were built in and included the ability to control functions on other locos in the consist (like sound locos) – so yet another vendor change seemed like it was warranted.
Looking back, I have some definite observations on the three systems. I post those next.