I hate to pee in the pickles, (yeah, that again), but I feel excluded from this topic because I do not have two years of use with my system.
It is suggested that I refrain from recommending a system, but does not preclude me from criticizing it. Accordingly, many of us will slant the discussion, if we are to participate at all, by pointing out deficiencies, but not offering positive comments that might lead to a thumbs-up overall. If my system works for me, and is reliable, functional, utile, and came at a low cost RELATIVE TO OTHERS TO WHICH I COMPARED IT…why would I be precluded from offering my opinion just because I have not used it for two years? This seems a bit arbitrary, and effectively disenfranchises me.
Well, how long have you used your system, and how much have you used it?
I’m not trying to be exclusive – I’m trying to be practical. I chose 2 years because that’s generally enough time for you to encounter some issues (lets the electronics burn in), plus you are finally beyond the “new system buzz” and can probably tell us a few system gotchas you’ve experienced.
But if you’ve used your system for less that 2 years, the forum police won’t come after you if you happen to post your experiences. [swg]
If you have owned your system for less than 2 years, please be up front about it and tell us how long you’ve had it – and then we can take your experience (or lack thereof) in context.
Some system versions, like the NCE PowerCab, haven’t even been on the market for 2 years, but I hasten to add that if anyone has one of these brand new models, we’d all still like to hear what you think.
Ok, following the rules: I suggest Digitrax zephyr for a beginner with a small/medium size layout.
Good:
Price, I got my zephyr for $160. Not bad at all in my opinion
Expandibility, The zephyr is compatible with all digitrax components, so you can start with a basic zephyr system and expand it as your layout expands.
Loconet, I love loconet. There is no complex wiring between DCC components, just run some 6 conductor phone cord between the loconet ports and thats it. Plus with the loconet system you can connect to a computer for programming and operations.
Customer Service, I had a problem with the zephyr a couple months ago, I sent it to digitrax and they fixed it and sent it back within 2 weeks, for free!
Bad:
Power, the zephyr is a small system putting out only 2.5 amps. This is enough to run maybe 5 or 6 locomotives. You can add boosters to increase power output, but boosters arent free.
Sound Capability, The zephyr comes with only functions 0-9. The new sound engines use 12 functions. You can add a DT400 throttle with all the functions, but a DT400 costs almost as much as the zephyr
If we really want the most comprehensive assessment to offer those who would use this topic as an aid in deciding which system to purchase (our intended beneficiaries if I understand it), then we need the largest sample of users possible…otherwise what we will offer will have poor relation to what the manufacturers actually offer. There are too few responders here who have actually used more than one system, so all you will get is anecdotal information anyway. This is basic sampling theory.[:)]
GUISEPPI:
Rather than ‘What’s the best’ I’d prefer tto hear the Voice of experience LIST
thing’s - in order of importance -
Thing’s I would like to be included would be 2 vs 4 digit addresses - is it really important? Short circuit protection - sensitivities? RF control - range vs obsticles? Speed steps? - I’ve Oftened wondered why a few speed steps with realistic momentum and decay wouln’t be preferable to 128 or so steps. Diesel loco’s have much less. Another example is this 99 cab’s. WHO in heck is goint to buy 99 cabs?- or need 999 addresses? MUing consist’s I can see.
I guess I would like to hear what is most important if you were starting over, or designing a system, and why?. Number’s are too often a marketing game.( “Oh, 256 speed step’s must be TWICE as good as 128”) Sure.
Now go FOR IT. From you there’ll be no wrong answer’s…
Since I was around and participating on the Compuserve Trainnet forum (still around on the web today!) back when the inital discussions for an NMRA standard command control system were taking palce, allow me to post what I recall about the speed steps issue. Those behind the Lenz approach (similar but not identical to the actual DC specifications we have today) were constantly harping on the idea that ‘real diesels’ only have 8 speed steps, why should we need more than 14? The best answer is “momentum doesn’t scale”. Operating a real locomotive is a balancing act between the momentum of the train and gravity and friction. You don’t need infinitely variabe control because of how long it takes a minor change to be felt by the entire train. You can’t “floor it” unless you want to break knuckles and/or damage cargo. And a slight change in applied power might result in a 1mph speed change - after half a dozen miles! We don’t have this luxury with our models. Even with high efficiency motors and hefty flywheels, our models won’t roll for miles with the power off. 14 steps just doesn’t cut it - you can try it for yourself, program a decoder for 14 speed steps and set your system up to send only 14 speed steps. Very rough control, like a cheap DC power pack. 28 is nearly acceptable. 128 is nearly continuously variable, with no ‘step’ action, assuming you don’t have wierd values for start, mid, and top CVs and/or speed tables (some decoders work with speed tables at 128 steps, not just 14/28). 256 would be overkill - there’s so little change between steps with 128 that it isn’t necessary (and would require an entire extra byte of data!) to go to 256 or more. 128 is kind of a ‘sweet spot’
And for those that don’t like diseasles… steam locos ARE nearly continuously variable! The throttles have lots of ‘notches’ in the sector plates, as does (usually) the Johnson bar for setting the cutoff. So 14 speed steps wouldn’t be anything like a real steam loco!
Another part of the argument went to how people run thei
How true. My new SEB has been on the shelf for how many years now…I don’t know, but that is the entire basis of my DCC experience. Tom has EZ-Command, and that is the basis of his. Randy had the Zephyr or the Super Chief, I forget, and someone else, also a first-timer, is a year-long veteran of his NEC whatever. Surely their input, whether positive, neutral, or negative, can be shared to form a consensus about a given model. It would be different if 60 users of each type gave input, but that won’t happen for a very long time, I’m betting.
Okay. Looks like I’m the junior here; only had my DCC system since Feb 2005. As a newcomer to the hobby I choose my first system for many of the reasons that have been listed here. Mine specifically where:
What’s available locally
Of two LHS in area, the LHS being around the longest recommended brand X because of large usage in area. Other LHS only carried competitor brand Y and this LHS was new to the area. I choose brand X with following criteria also
Cost
Additional features could be added as my needs grew.
Reliability and support
I haven’t had enough time with it, so I can’t give any credible input here.
Ease of use
Twenty twenty hindsight. Easy of use is now one of my most important considerations and the reason I am really considering a new DCC system. I also work with computers all day long and do not want to spend hours figuring out how to program this and that. I also agree that reading the manual is a good thing - and I did , I also believe that the human interface plays a very very important part. My next system needs to be a bit more intuitive.
Now … where did I place that darn manual [V]
So, it is with great zeal that I will follow this post knowing that I will be much wiser for that next purchase. [:D]
Well, Here’s my 40 cents… I have a Digitrax Chief that I’ve been using for about 5 or 6 years. It originally came as a kit with the booster/command station, a test plug for the loconet, the DT100IR throttle, instructions and a video… I also have a second DT100IR for guests as well as a UT1 for the kiddies…
I originally started with the Empire builder but wanted a little more than that system offered. First of all, the EB offered a loco refresh stack of 22 locos… What that basically means is that each time a signal is sent out it will poll the most recently used 22 decoders. At the time, I thought that it meant that the system could ONLY support 22 locos. Not entirely true. You can have as many as you want but only the most recently used 22 would be adressed on each pass of the network. The thing that really got annoying to me was lack of a dedicated programming track for addressing. Anything else could be done in a broadcast type mode but to set an address, a track had to be either blocked or all the other locos removed from the layout (or they would all have the same address)… Well, I went digital to get rid of the blocks.
The Chief, while it defaults to the same 22 loco stack, will support up to 120. When I was first readng up on DCC and loco stacks a lot of lip service was given to the time it would take to refre***he loco stack. The claim was that if a lot of locos are in operation, there would be a time lag between issuing a command and the loco decoder acting on it… This lone wolf operator has seen no such lag but I guess if you had 20 throttles controlling 20 trains, you might notice some delay. The system also has a dedicated programming output that I personally have found invaluable. Both systems came originally with the DT100IR so erganomics and user interface didn’t change with the upgrade. The chief can also run on an 8 amp supply while the empire builder was limited to 5… What I have today amounts to what they sell as the Super Chief, with a DT400IR throttle…
TOPIC THIS POST: Let’s rank the systems against these considerations
Last post we looked at some non-feature based considerations when selecting a DCC system to buy. Let’s take the practical considerations in this post and rank some systems. We’ll look at the other considerations - ease of use and reliability in the next few posts. Then we’ll get into some more considerations.
Practical considerations
What’s available locally for this system?
Obviously this will vary depending on where you are located. However, there are some observations I can make, like what system is most likely to be what other modelers own, based on making an educated guess about sales numbers.
I don’t have the actual sales numbers, but I can get a sense from talking with modelers and from looking at the size of the Yahoo support forums gives us some idea of who owns what systems. Here’s the size of the various support forums:
Digitrax 5676
NCE 2176
Lenz 1687
MRC 519
EasyDCC 455
Zimo 308
Bachmann 200
Atlas [none]
This does not necessarily mean Digitrax is the best system, or that Atlas is the worst system … but at least you can see Digitrax does a very good job marketing and hence is well known, and to a certain degree it also shows how long the various manufacturer’s systems have been on the market. For instance, the first DCC systems to market in 1993 were Digitrax and Lenz, and Bachmann is the most recent entry into the DCC market.
And if I want to be cynical, the membership numbers on a support forum could be construed to give some indication of how much support a system needs. I don’t think that’s necessarily true, but it could be a factor in driving at least some of the membership numbers you see on the support forums.
I have to say that you have some of the most original and/or unusual sayings that I’ve heard in a while. (Brrr! Time to turn up the heat in the house. It’s as cold as a dragon’s rear end around here.) Thanks for the chuckle…
Having been in DCC since about 1994, let me make some observations. I was at a Divisional Meet last night(about 50 folks). A ‘show of hands’ resulted in about 40% indicating that they have or were starting down the DCC road. The rest were split on ‘I am interested’ to the ‘I do not understand it’ or ‘I have too many engines to convert’.
DCC is still stuck in the old PC hobbyist mentality. You sort of got to like to ‘play’ with technology, and DCC is just another ‘hobby’ in it’s own. We have not come to the point where DCC is just another ‘appliance’ that I plug in and run trains with. PC’s are just getting to the point where a ‘end user’ can get a PC at Best Buy or order it from Dell and just ‘use’ it. DCC is still ‘way out there’ for many modelers. Now, do not take me as ‘old school’, resisting change all the way. Like I mentioned, I have been into DCC for over 10 years, and have a ‘layouts’ worth of it installed. I am a ‘Technical Solutions Mgr’ for a large computer company and deal with complex technical issues every day.
I see two major issues with deciding to go DCC:
o - User Interface(cab) I have operated with EasyDCC, Lenz(including the wireless
phone option), Digitrax, and NCE. None of these have the ‘penultimate’ throttle that
has alll the ‘features’ and is user friendly all in one cab. I have Digitrax DT400R
throttles, but I like to use my ‘Palm Pilot’ throttle best for some reason. I think it is
because everything is laid out so nice.
o - Decoder installs This one is tough as many folks want to install a decoder in a 20
year old engine that does not run good on DC to start with! I have about 60 engines,
only about 20 have decoders(the ones that are used on the layout). Many of the
others will never get a decoder and are ‘display case’ material(they hold some
‘special’ value or ‘memory’).
Your example of people raising hands at a meet isn’t exactly a scientific poll, but it sounds like you are saying 60% of the modelers out there don’t do DCC. If there are 200,000 model railroaders in the world and the 60% figure is anywhere in the ballpark that still means there are 80,000 DCC users worldwide. Of course, this pie is divided up across some 6-8 DCC system producers, which means each system maker probably has somewhere between a few thousand customers to 20,000+ customers.
And DCC is just over a decade old at this point. It typically takes about 20 years for a technology to really saturate the market. If as your unscientific poll suggests, we’re nearing the halfway mark, then we’re pretty much on track. That means in the next few years more people will own DCC than don’t. That also means the day is coming in the next few years when everything you buy will come DCC equipped out of the box.
You say you love your palm pilot throttle but you don’t elaborate. What system is it for, and does the software allow you to rearrange your throttle controls to your liking? If so, that could explain why you prefer it. Can you tell us more?
The whole throttle question is an interesting one. I see there’s a throttle thread going now on this forum, and we’ll get to throttle comparisons in this discussion too.
I have to say that I am really enjoying this forum. I am currently looking at purchasing a DCC system for my home layout and have been doing tons of research. The systems I have looked at all have their pros and cons, but discussions like this one make it easier for me to limit the number of systems to consider. Hopefully by Christmas(??) I will be purchasing a system and let you know what I decided to purchase. Keep up the discussions because they are very helpful.
Thanks
John
p.s. the systems I am considering are the Digitrax Super Chief (hopefully radio controlled), the NCE system and the Lenz system (originally the 90, but now the 100)
The Palm Pilot throttle is a combination of a hardware cable/encoder that plugs into my Palm Pilot and some software that I had to download into it. Digitrax sell the H/W, and LocoPalm sells the software. It is not ‘wireless’ but it is very easy to use, and is great for consisting, etc…I keep my unit plugged into a port by the yard. I have taken my cable and my Palm Pilot with me an business trips, and I have a throttle if at a Digitrax powered layout.
Digitrax has a weak point - the throttles are not everything I want(though the DT400 series can do anything I want to do). I really think they need to invest some more time in the ‘ergononic’ aspect of the design. I ran trains this past summer with the Lenz ‘wireless’ using some cheap home wireless phones. I had written off this type of throttle when I first heard of it, but they really were pretty nice to use!
The inhibiting factor for a lot of modelers is the cost of decoders(I know they are down to about $15 each). These guys multiply $15 times 50 engines and all they can see is ‘I could have bought 2 more BLI sound equipped engines’(and run them on straight DC)! New modelers who are serious about the hobby will ‘decoderize’ engines as they buy them(and most will be DCC Ready or have DCC and/or sound in them).