Due to large radius turns and 2ft table depths on my proposed walk-around layout, I might need to split my yard on both sides of the main line. Is this realistic? I might have the arrival/departure/classification on one side of the main and the engine service area and work train storage on the other, would that be realistic?
If I try and keep the main on one side of the yard, I lose a lot of space for the yard and engine service area. What are your thoughts?
IMO, your best bet is to put the yard on one side of the main and the engine facilities, etc on the other side. There are examples of yards where the main splits yard tracks on both side, but these tend to be the larger ones. Doubt that’s what you’re trying to depict or have the space for.
This has been covered many times before. Do not confuse a classification yard or car storage yard with a service facility. Most of the time they are separated by many miles and sometimes right next to each other. There are east bound and westbound class yards that can have the mainline separating the two.
For a limited space layout you can have an intermediate type yard where a through train can drop a cut of cars for the switching crew to sort and band together returns and tack them on the next through freight. The servicing facility can be on another part of the layout representing a division point or crew change. The locomotives working the intermediate yard would be fueled and serviced on site but run light to the division point for shopping. The loco used for the local would run light or with caboose from the division point to the intermediate yard. Hook up and do its daily chore and then return light back to the division point. These little local yards can be fun to switch. You can spend hours sorting ins and outs and delivering a couple local cars all while avoiding the through trains.
Pete
Pete has it. That is how mine is. I have the engine servicing about a scale 1/3 of a mile from the local industrial switching yard.
The yard engines and local engine just go to the engine yard when needed. Lots of fun to do the switching and pick ups and deliveries.
To answer your question yes,I’ve seen small yards that was split by the main and a small engine service area was off of the runner track…Of course this yard was for service 3 locals and one yard was for the outbound pickups and set outs by through trains.Both yards had a switch lead.A runaround move or transfer of cars require the use of the mainline…The crew would need to get authority from the dispatcher to use the main.
The engine service area had a fuel and sanding pad with pump house,mu cable stand and no engine house.There was two storage sheds,a small concrete crew breakroom and large fuel storage tank.
As an example, the Summer 2012 issue of Classic Trains has an aerial view of the Milwaukee Road’s Portage WI facilities. This 1950’s picture shows the engine terminal on the south side of the Main and the freight yard on the north side of the main.
In some cases, if a yard was across the Main from the engine facilities it was a good idea to have a water plug on the yard side in steam days as steam engines usually needed water a lot more often than they needed coal. With diesels, if there was too much traffic to cross over the Main for fuel, they would just have a local fuel dealer send a truck out to refuel the shifter.
Actually they would make their move across the main between trains-all it would take is permission from the dispatcher.
As far as to much traffic the main line trains would be operating under “yard limit” rules since they will be going through a yard…
Only if there were yard limits. If there weren’t yard limits (for example it was CTC territory) then they would be operating under signal indication of verbal permission of the train dispatcher. Just because there is a yard, doesn’t mean there are yard limits.
If there were yard limits then they wouldn’t need permission from the dispatcher to use the main track. They would just have to clear first class trains.
If there were yard limits then they wouldn’t need permission from the dispatcher to use the main track.
Dave,Every time we entered the main we had to contact the Dispatcher and get his permission to tie up his main.On the PRR we contacted that sections tower operator.Even within yard limits that uses the main for a switch lead you just don’t pull out on the main without authority…
I also suspect a yard divided by a main would be protected by yard limit rules plus permission since your tying up the main while you switch.
If you do stick you neck out on the main without authority and another trains hits you guess who’s at fault? You had no business being there since you had no authority to occupy that man’s track.
Great Conversation! Space starts to be a factor for me with all of the industries that I am trying to put along the RR. To the left of the yard will be the wye for the passenger station and Intermodel yard, while on the right will have my auto manfactureing factility. So putting the engine service area seperate from the yard could be difficult. However putting across the main works really well. See the table is 2’ wide along that wall and the 30" curves natually put the main down the middle of the table. So I can have a four track yard on one side and the engine service facility (either three or four tracks) on the other.
As far as yard limits and dispatcher permissions to cross or “foul” the main. This is all interesting info and will help me define my operations.
You do every place besides manual block control on the PRR. That’s the whole point of yard limits on every other property. The PRR rules are essentially a special case and are different in many ways from rules on most of the other roads in the US.
This is a typical yard limit rule on the vast majority of railroads in the US:
CCOR 1939 Rule 93 : Within yard limits the main track may be used, clearing first class trains when due to leave the last station where time is shown, but not less than five minutes. In case of failure to clear the main track protection must be given as prescribed by Rule 99.
Within yard limits the main track may be used with out protecting against second and inferior class, extra trains and engines.
Second and inferior class, extra train and engines must move within yard limits at restricted speed.
Note there is NO requirement to contact the dispatcher or control operator.
PRR 1951 Rule 93 : Within yard limits, movements not authorized by time-table schedule or train order may be made on the main track by proper signal indication or permission of the operator without protecting against extra trains or engines.
Within yard limits, regular and extra trains are not required to provide protection , except against regular trains.
Note there IS a requirement to contact the operator .
Two completely different rules with virtually opposite requirements.
On the PRR you are correct. On virtually every other property, not so much.
Dave,I worked on the PRR and on the C&O under Chessie/CSX banners…One doesn’t venture out on the main without authority nor does he enter the inbound yard without permission since you have no way of knowing if there is a inbound lined for the track you will be occupying while making your move.
Even on a layout that uses DCC one should check for clearance before occupying the main track especially solo operation with 2 or more trains running.
Back in the 1960s and 1970s on the B&O, the DS wasn’t going to cross over a yard engine if he had important trains to run (Advance men, hot cars for GM, and, most of all Trailer Jets)
Sometimes it could take four hours or more to get across the Main in CTC territory (East of Baltimore) and then after you fueled the engine you’d have to get back across to start shifting again. The Working Foreman would walk across the Main with the connection fitting and a wrench to meet the fuel truck. Sometimes he would also do daily inspections and make minor repairs or change brake shoes on the “other side”
A hot shot freight was no guarantee you would be running nonstop between terminals.I know that from experience.
Did you know a experience dispatcher wouldn’t need 4 hours to get a light engine move across his main line-that move would take around 10 minutes(allowing time for opening and closing the needed switches) which is plenty of time…
If by “working foreman” you mean conductor then he would not do any repairs since that would involve violating union job description and agreements between the craft unions, the UTU and railroad…
Even a shop foreman was prohibited from doing a union craft job.
Yard limits IS the authority on the main track. Read the CCOR rule. IT is a different rule than the one you are used to. The CCOR rule, with minor variations, is used by every railroad west of the Mississippi from about WW1 to this very day.
The whole point of yard limits is exactly to allow trains and engines to use the main track without dispatcher authority.
That’s the way is has been taught in every rules class I have been in for the last 30+ years. That’s the way it was taught when I taught rules classes. That’s the way every dispatch office i’ve worked in used it.
Your railroads used a different rule because you had different control systems. But it was not the most common variation of the yard limit rule.
You are correct for the properties you are familiar with. I am correct for the properties I am familiar with.
Dave,The conductors I worked with would not jeopardize their train or their livelihood by not putting safety first by placing a simple radio or line phone call (PRR) for clearence…
A railroader of your experience should know what would happen if there was a accident even under yard limits…You would be in the unemployment line after all you stuck your neck out and got it in a wringer of chopping blades.
The best safety tips was expect a opposing train anytime and think before you move or has that gone out the door along with common sense railroading?
I attended safety classes as well and knew some safety instructions was less then a half step above lunacy in real railroading and would probably end up getting a man killed or crippled.I wasn’t the only railroader that thought that.
To cross over a CTC Main you pulled up to a stop signal and waited for it to change. When you got the signal was up to the DS. I don’t know how long it should take to get the signal, just how long it sometimes did.
The Working Foreman was MofE. As I understood it, he was on the foremans roster and had foremans authority and got foremans pay, but also actually worked on the engines. At times he was the only employee at the engine facility, but occaisionally he would have a helper. Apparently this was something the B&O did at smaller facilities. I have not heard of such a job on any other road.
“Working Foreman” an MofE job should not be confused wi
And that’s the difference between operating in a CTC or manual block type system (PRR) and an area with out a CTC or manual block system.
If you are outside of a manual block or CTC system (which is thousands of miles of single main track) the dispatcher doesn’t know where the train is, other than were it was last reported (OS). The dispatcher doesn’t line signals, the dispatcher doesn’t line routes, the dispatcher doesn’t line switches. There is no operator that does that. The train crews are responsible fro lining switches. That’s a HUGE difference from how the PRR systems work.
The dispatcher doesn’t know what moves are being made in the yard limits. There really isn’t anything the dispatcher can tell a train wanting to use the main track. What is the dispatcher going to tell the crew if he doesn’t know the position of any of the switches or routes or any of the movements being made in the yard limits?
All the movements for all trains other than first class trains are made at restricted speed. They have to stop short of, or within half the range of vision of any obstructions.
You can think what you want of the yard limit rules, just remember its been used as a I have described for over a hundred years over the majority of the US railroads.
And that can be said of any main track authority method. But in the case of yard limits under rules
Dave,I’ve notice any time the NS local based at Marion(Oh) needs to enter the main from the Marion yard he gets permission from the DS…
The CSX local based at Marion gets authority to enter the main for head room for switching long cuts of cars…
When the NS local makes his turn at the Benson yard here in Bucyrus he request a track permit from the DS for his runaround move and and headroom for switching(if any).
All three yards operate under “yard limits”…
Back to the topic at hand. Another example of a prototype yard on both sides of the main track would be BNSF’s Eola yard on the east side of Aurora IL at the west end of the famed “racetrack”. I’m not an expert on operations there but I believe one side handles eastbound traffic and the other westbound traffic. The engine terminal and yard office are on the north side of the main on the west end. You could look it up on google maps just to get a sense of the layout of the yard.