G Gauge/Scale Japanese Skinkansen 500 Bullet Train ??

Garden Railroading
1

Greetings everyone.

This is my 1st post here, so please be gentle.

I’m a scale model builder/fabricator by trade, and I have been throwing a few ideas around in my head for a while now. I’ve started to put pen to paper now, and have realized, I am getting my self in allot of trouble I think.

I have always loved the sleek design of the Japanese bullet trains, and have been thinking about building a BIG replica. The largest version of this train available is “O” gauge. It’s a very well built, working brass train, that is available in Japan. After looking into importing a copy, I was quoted $32,000 to have the set shipped to me. BUT… only 4 of the 12 unique cars are available so far, and I would have to wait till later this year, or possibly next year the other 8 cars to be produced. Needless to say, the price itself turned me off.

So here I am, back at the drawing board, thinking BIGGER IS BETTER !!
I have the skills, abilities, to build this train in almost any scale.
Right now, I am still trying to decide…
1:27 (scaled the the wheel diameter)
1:29 (more standard for scale)
1:33.3 (scaled to the 45mm track width, to = the Japanese truck width)

1:33.3 would be “G-Gauge” scaled to what a real “G Scale” would be, but he train will be quite a bit smaller, only 41 feet long, as where 1:27 it would be 59 feet long. Either way, it’s going to be BIG !!!

Ok, here’s my million dollar question… Do any of you guys think that there would be anyone interested in buying a copy of this train if and when we got it done?
I am trying to justify the cost that will go into making this set, because I plan on making a custom profile aluminum extrusion, to get the body perfect, and as straight as possible. The up front costs on making a profile like this will be in the thousands, but I would also have enough to build 4-5 sets when I was done. Plus, the labor would be very minimal compared to trying to form sheets into a complex small curve.
S

2

James,

G’day and welcome to our community.

I assume from the scale that the Japanese gauge is 5 feet. If you are going to expend thousands of dollars and thousands of hours crafting a model, shouldn’t it be close to scale? Think about it for a second. People who spend the sums of money you are considering will probably want a model which is as close to true scale as the outlay would suggest.

If you build it to 1:27 scale it will dwarf the American mainline equipment that currently exists in 1:32 scale, and that abomination, 1:29 scale.

Do the Japanese make a narrow gauge version? I doubt it.

Having said that I will never buy one. 1) because on my layout it would be out of place 2) I could never afford it and 3) the driver would be looking at the taillights of the last car most of the time!

Good luck whatever you decide. Judging by your earlier work, it will be a sight to see when you are done!

3

Before you start anything I think you really should do some maths… Then and only then -think about what scale you wish to use. What you need to calculate is the current draw on the motors. Based on the mass and terminal velocity of your loco The cornering on your bogies, the wheel shape for the loco as the std G1MRA profile is not going to work, (I would suggest a smaller version of the Gauge ‘3’ Society wheel). The desired Super elevation of the track at the desired cornering speed. The type of track to be used. How the power is delivered to the wheels : gear ratio, motor type, ESC type, on board power -or track pickup. Welcome to the world of Large Scale… regards ralph

4

Thanks for your reply.

I don’t expect anyone here to buy into the train at all, I’m just looking for opinions from veteran G scalers, if this would be a desirable set once it’s done. Either way, I am probably going to built it.
I would just be nice to know if it’s something others might want later, that would help cover it’s expense later.

As for Japanese narrow gauges, I really don’t know at all. I’d have to do some research, and see what I can find.
You don’t see many trains in the Zen gardens do you :slight_smile:

As for actual gauge… the Japanese high speed trains are 1,435mm or 56.5" (stupid gauge) If I do the math, to get the train to scale down to the track width, I get 1:33.3 scale, which is really weird.
The 1:29 version would keep the cars to about a 6’ tall doorway, and keep the cars about the right size, but I would have to fudge the trucks and wheels to fit the track.
What I need is a wider track to make the train to a real “scale”

I really don’t know what to do. Changing the scale is a few clicks in AutoCAD for me, pretty easy. But picking the right one to start with is the hard part.

Here is a what the scales look like. You can see the actual wheels, and where they should be if the track was scaled too. http://www.carveraudio.com/Shinkansen-500/scales.jpg

More advice please.

5

Maybe go 1:24… double the O gauge version ?? Man that will be big though.

Thanks Ralph. The mechanics and electronics don’t really scare me. I see most of that as details that can be worked out as I go. Getting the structure of the cars done is the major part to me. I know turns will be an issue. This will not be a 10’ x 20’ layout for sure. They would have to be large sweeping turns. I’m sure I can home up with something if someone wanted it to take smaller corners. Again, another detail for later.

James

6

James, I suppose I should put my cards on the table… I am the former Secretary of “The Gauge ‘3’ Society”. G3 uses a track gauge of 63.5mm and a scale of 1:22.6 I am also the chief author of the (as yet) unpublished “Gauge ‘3’ Technical Manual”, (it currently runs to 475 pages of A4), and I specialise in the weird and wonderful of locomotive design!!! There are a few G3 “ICE” locos and sets running on this gauge and scale. I personally intend to build a complete BR APT -E car setup after the current “to build” list is exhausted (and probably me with it!) Have a look at the list and construction details of the locos that I have built. For reasons of training and personal satisfaction I like to understand how my model will behave and react before I start drawing it. Check out the Bio and read the Home page. Let me know if you need some ideas about the required maths… regards ralph

7

I appreciate the advice. Last night I was doing a little research on Scale3. Some of those trains are amazing !!! and the best part is, the track is 2.5" A perfect match for my train if I built it to 1:22.5 You da’ man Ralph.

I have really been thinking though, and I came to the conclusion, that 1:22.5 is just going to be too big of a train in the end. I mean we’re talking about 60 foot long set. That’s just too big (for me to do anything with).

You ever just have one of those brain farts, that you just have to make something, and there really is no real reason for it… well this is mine. It’s one of those “I Gotta Have It” things. I’m really not into trains all that much, and have no idea if I would even build a layout for it. I just want to do something no one else has done.

Right now, I’m really leaning towards something between 1:33.3 and 1:27. I would really prefer to stick with the G track, and make the train fit. 1:33.3 would be actual scale to the track, so… I dono. What would you do ??

It looks like, no matter what I do, something will be wrong. Either the trucks will be out of scale, the cars will be out of gauge, or the train will be a weird scale that nothing in the market will match.

damit man… there’s ALWAYS something.

8

Most G3 locos and carriages are “Loco +3” my APT -E setup will be 2 power cars plus 2 carriages. Even then it will take 4 trips between the shed and the track. I would suggest that your train is 2 power cars and 3 carriages. That will give you a WOW factor beyond belief… Plus it will be something that you transport to other layouts in the back of a car. Could I suggest that you stick to G1MRA scale of 10mm to the foot or a scale of 1:32. This will enable you to source track work and wheels that can be used to good advantage and most of the formulae that you will need for your calculations for this scale are well known. The G1MRA wheel profile is a good one -but is not a high speed design. And believe me you are going to want to see what your baby is going to do!!! (My NER EE-1 has clocked a scale 86mph -which is what the original was designed to do). My obsession is to build a gas turbine powered locomotive at G3 scale -so welcome to the home filled with mattress wallpaper -there are plenty of roomates here… As a planning point I would suggest that you ditch the Imperial dimensions and work from a pure SI / Metric system. Japan is Metric -all the dimensions are Metric. Changing from Metric to Imperial all the time is going to introduce a whole stream of errors that will come back to haunt you. E-mail or YIM me if you want to ask questions that you think you might need to know. If you want to do a G3 version then I can attach the parts of the Technical Manual that I think might be relevant to you. regards ralph

9

A quick correction to the math…

The Japanese bullet trains run on “Standard Gauge”(4’ 8.5") track, so the proper scale for running on ga. 1 (45mm) track would be 1:32. (If I recall, the bullet trains are among the only trains in Japan that run on “standard gauge” track. Japanese “standard” gauge is 42".)

Note, however, in terms of comparing the Japanese bullet trains in terms of overall size to US prototypes, you must remember that the loading gauge (width and height) of US equipment is a fair amount larger than that of equipment on other continents, including the Japanese bullet trains. So, a 1:32 model of a bullet train will be dwarfed by a 1:32 model of a Southern Pacific Daylight train, simply because the Daylight is a physically larger prototype.

Personally, if you’re going to spend the time and money to build a model of this, build it to the correct scale/gauge combination (i.e. 1:32mm for running on 45mm track, 1:22.5 for running on ga. 3 track, etc.) In terms of marketing it to others, I’d definitely go with ga. 1 track. The number of people doing gauge 3–especially on this side of the pond–is probably measured in dozens. The space required for running one of these to where it looks good on curves in ga. 3 is larger than most people’s yards. So, you’d not only need to find someone who’s doing ga. 3, but who has the railroad to accommodate. You’re probably in single digits at that point. I know of one ga. 3 railroad here in the Denver area, and his railroad is definitely too small for a train like this.

Later,

K

10

Maybe this is a crazy thought, but here goes: What if you built it around one of the ride-on train gauges (7.5" and 7.75" I think they are). You would have to figure out the correct scale for that gauge.

The good things about this: you will have some very wide curves to run on and you would not need to build your own layout/RR-just join a local ride-on train RR club.

The bad things about this: You would need to figure out some sort of R/C system to control the train since I don’t think you would want to make this a ride-on model. And this would be really big and expensive (I would think).

Good luck whatever you decide to do. &

11

All good suggestions (except the 7" scale) you trying to bankrupt me ?? hehehe
That would be just way too big to mess with for me.
I DO however plan to make the train RC. I used to fly helicopters, and race 1/10 scale on-road cars.
I still have a ton of 3-6-8 channel gear sitting around.

I am starting to like the 1:32 scale train running on a 45mm “G” track.
But how stupid will it look next to a standard G scale train ??

It is the most realistic and “do-able” plan so far I think. The next step to 3G is a BIG one. And like you said, where could you ever run it…

Ok, looks like 1:32 is the winner “for now” I will start scaling everything I have to that, and see what I get.

((kstrong))
You are correct, this train runs on 4-8.5" track… which is equal to the above 1435mm

Here’s a nice little track gauge chart I got off Wiki.

Track Gauge Chart

12

G guage Shinkansen? Its been done in Paper, why not Styrene?

http://www.youtube.com/user/ituncle#p/a/u/1/eR9lht-jsTk

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Well a Bullet Train as a Gauge ‘3’ locomotive would require a radius of 4.5 metres with a super elevation of 2.75mm at the outer rail to do a scale 101mph or 2 metres per second… The Gauge ‘3’ Society are recommending 3.0 4.5 6.0 and 7.5 metre radii for their curves in the “C3” proposal document. So this means your track work would have to be a minimum of 9 metres wide. So G3 can be quite “compact” (???) when seen against the more common 6 metres radii often used in Gauge 1… My own G3 track is 24.4 metres by 10.6 metres with 2.2 and 3.2 metre radii curves. Whatever scale you decide -is the right one. We are all here to help you with your insanity!!! If you are going to Gauge ‘1’ then could I suggest that you look very closely at the track work sold by “Tenmille” and “Cliff Barker” sells track work for Gauge ‘1’ and Gauge ‘3’. regards ralph

14

Yeah, I talked to that YouTube guy a few times.
I thought about styrene… I will probably make a mock up out of styrene or acrylic, but I want something a little more beefy in the end.
One of my other hobby projects is a 13’ long 1/14 RC tractor trailer. I really wanted to build a specific trailer, and scaled everything to the tractor. Here’s a link to the actuators that drop the trailer
http://www.model-displays.com/Projects/truck1/LoadKing.htm

If I go with 1/32, each car will be about 31" long. Which in my opinion is big enough for now. I can always scale things up later if someone requests it.

15

Well I threw together a quick skeleton model of one of the cars out of 3/16 acrylic the other night. I was impressed with the size. It was allot bigger than I expected it to be.

So, if I use 1:32 for the train scale, and it runs on G track… what would you officially call this train ?? a 1:32-scale-G-gauge ?? Kind of a 1/2 breed ??

I’m going to have to cut custom wheels I think as well. The standard G-gauge wheel are way too tall, and would cut up into the body of the cars too much.

16

It is what it is -a Gauge 1 Scale 1 model, and as such is perfectly respectable on any track. I would have expected you to have to source your own wheels as well. I have made my own custom wheels in two manners, by machining them from Bar stock and machining then from Flat plate. You are going to have to make them from std 100 series mild steel either way. Here is a loco that has perhaps the worst wheels to make -I should know I made them… As I stated above I would use the Gauge ‘3’ Society profile wheel for your rolling stock as the G1MRA is a good wheel -but is not really designed for high speed work. The G1MRA wheel. http://www.gaugeone.org/Misc/STANDARD%20DIMENSIONS%20FOR%20GAUGE%20‘1’.pdf The Gauge ‘3’ Society wheel. http://www.gauge3.org.uk/technical.html As I said -we are all here to help you with your insanity!!! regards ralph

17

Ok, here is my little sample. 1:32-G “Wide Gauge”
Its about 4" tall 4.5" wide, and 31" long. 1/8 laser cut acrylic, with 1/8" aluminum rods to keep everything aligned. I am thinking about using .010 acetate to wrap the whole thing.
I see a few things I’d do different the 2nd time around, but as-is, it’s really ridged already.
I’m seriously considering building the whole train this way. So far, what you see is about $10 worth of materials, and about 3 hours of work.

18

What you have is 1:32 scale standard gauge, also known as ‘One Gauge’. It is the only truly accurate way to represent the real thing using 45mm track. Congratulations on your choice and on your early efforts.

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It is absolutely beautiful!!! The only thing I would suggest is that you photograph things against a “neutral background” to enable us to have a good look at what you are building. You also seem to have a piece of heavy duty track beside it. A model of this calibre is going to require some true scale track work for it to run on. I love it already!!! regards ralph

20

Who’s a good source for the right kind of track ?? I’d like a 3’ or 4’ piece just to have laying around for photos.

Thanks for all the help and feedback so far too !!!

James