There are thousands of cities not served by Amtrak, but, being a Midwesterner, there has always been one route to me that seems like an absolutely gaping hole in the Amtrak map and given tight funding, may be for a long time.
The route I had in mind was from Chicago to Florida. It seems you could route from Chicago to Indy to Louisville to Nashville to Chattanooga to Atlanta to Jacksonville, connecting to other Amtrak trains to other FL points.
Chicago is a natural connector for places like MSP/ST P, St Louis, WI, MI, etc. Likewise JAX could collect Orlando, Tampa, Miami, etc.
Between Chicago and Jax there are over 2 million people just in the major cities between. Seems like there would be really good traffic for much of the year. I guess logic doesn’t alway carry the day when political funding gets in the mix.
Is anyone aware of that route every being considered? Was there a decent Chicago to FL service in the pre-Amtrak era?
IIRC, there was a story (or at least a “Map of the Month”) in a recent trains on that very topic. There were several railroads that ran service Chicago to Florida. I believe several gathered branches (ie, a St Louis train connecting with one from Chicago) to create the train that eventually arrived in Florida.
Oh, my, yes. You had the three streamliners between Chicago and Miami (IC-CG-ACL-FEC, PRR-L&N-ACL-FEC, and C&EI-L&N-NC&SL-ACL-FEC) which, running on varying frequencies, provided one-night-each-way service that ranged from one train a day to five every three days. Except for the PRR etc. route, there were also trains that were heavyweight or a mixture of heavy weight and light weight cars that took one night between Chicago and Jacksonville–and there was one train, the Dixie Flyer (C&EI etc.), which took two nights… Some of these had through cars to both the east and west coasts, just as the South Wind (PRR etc.) and City of Miami (IC etc.) did in the last few years before the advent of Amtrak. There were, also, through cars to and from St. Louis for the IC etc. trains. In the winter, the Southern had through cars to/from Chicago (handled by Big 4 west of Cincinnati) on its New Royal Palm, which was primarily a Detroit-Miami streamliner. And, some summers, the Sauthern had a through sleeper from Chicago to Jacksonville/Miami that was handled on the Royal Palm between Cincinnati and Jacksonville.
No, it was not political funding that killed the direct Chicago-Florida trains; it was the dearth of passengers. In the last two or three years or so, there were only two trains Chicago-Florida–and they ran on alternate days, so you really had only one train a day. And, for the last year, the South Wind was a Louisville-Florida train, with a connection to/from Chicago in Louisville.
Since 1989, a route similar to yours has been proposed, but nothinghas come of it. Perhaps it is felt that the traveling public is not interested.
Louisville-Atlanta-Jacksonville has good track. Chicago to Indy has no fast tr
The Floridian was Amtrak’s worst performing train when it was killed in 1979. If it is to be put back in service, Indiana, Tennessee and Georgia are going to have to provide much of the funding.
The most likely scenario would be an extension of the City of New Orleans to Orlando. This was covered on pages 20 and 21 of the November 2009 Trains.
If any of my fellow posters have been on a Southwest Airlines “Mickey Mouse Express” flight from Chicago to Orlando recently like I was this week, and found yourself on a fully (i.e. not a single open seat) flight with little kids kicking the back of your seat for all of the three housrs (+/-) to and from…you would agree with me that there is very much a market for Chicago-Florida passenger rail…but only if it is developed by Amtrak, which is currently not happening.
Times have changed since the 70’s in regards to transportation needs. Map gaps are something that need to be addressed as well as service gaps, i.e. fewer than one train a day to only one train a day. It seems that properous routes are those with multinumber of trains providing service and not just train rides.
Back in the 1970’s and early 1980’s there was also a 2nd Auto-Train service that ran over part of this route, from Louisville to Sanford, FL if I recall correctly. It started under the original Auto-Train Corp. operation, then when that went bust the operation was picked up by Amtrak for a while, then dropped. Others here can provide additional and perhaps more correct details.
Would the target market be the families with kids ? If they’re that restless on a 3-hour flight - granted, while confined to a small space - how crazy will they get on a 20 or 24-hour train trip ? Of course, there’d be lots of room to run up and down the train and harass the other coach passengers . . . .
Or, would the target market be ‘everyone else’ - and let the families with kids stay with the airlines and driving ?
In October 2001 - just after Sept. 11th, before airline flights were back to normal - we rode Amtrak overnight coach seats in a sold-out train going that way - some to the Mouse Rat Kingdom, many others not - and back again on a split trip. The kids actually behaved fairly well - it was the adults, esp. those with cell phones or a compulsive need to talk, and talk loudly, or with some kind of ‘issues’, that were the most troublesome. So from that standpoint it might be workable.
It would be interesting if funding could be found to underwrite a year’s worth of ‘demonstration’ trips and a lot of publicity - including travel writers, AAA vacation magazine writers, etc. - to build up a traffic base. As henry6 aptly noted above, a single train a day does not normally constitute ‘real service’ - there should preferably be multiple departures each day, integrated into the rest of the travel network in locations and time, to really see if the ‘lane’ will work.
The Chicago-Florida route is certainly a big gap in the Amtrak map. Chicago-Florida is one of the busiest travel corridors in the nation. It’s doubtful we’ll see a revived Floridian, however. Getting a train across Indiana is a tedious task at best. Look at the Cardinal’s schedule. A revival of the old C&EI-L&N-ACL route would add Nashville and Atlanta to direct Chicago service while missing Louisville and Indianapolis, but CSX would probably have to dragged kicking and screaming into allowing it. The best bet for Chicago-Florida service is having the City of New Orleans take a “left turn” at New Orleans to run along the old Sunset East route. Not ideal and not direct, but it would get the job done.
How about boarding the Adirondack at Rennselaer, and finding that the unhappy boy in the seat behind your wife’s has fits of kicking the back of her seat between there and Cantic? No, the family did not get off at the customs stop, but one of the inspectors told the mother to take her son and move to another seat. This was our experience three years ago; it was our only such experience.
Well, there is no shortage or highway traffic on I-75 and I-24, and there are lots and lots fo 4-5 hour drive city pairs on the route Chicago-Louisville, Nashville, Chattanooga, Atlanta, Jacksonville, Orlando, Miami, but between Louisville and Macon, GA, you’re pretty much going to have to build a brand new RR. The existing RR alignments are just lousy with curves and completely unsuitable for HSR. They aren’t even useful for 79 mph running. The Floridian, in it’s last days, hardly broke 40 mph wiggling it’s way from Nashville to Birmingham.
So, this may be a good corridor route for service, but the high cost of implementation will probably mean it’s one of the last to get done in the east.
mmmmm—saw that on a Greyhound bus. I would not be surprised if that is their target market.
I had the opportunity of being on the “City of New Orleans” a few years back and there were a fair number of kids on that. Did not seem to be too much of an issue----I shot quite a few pix during that trip. Great fun. Audrey and I are thinking quite hard about that one!
2. Even though CHI, Detroit, Toledo, Cleveland is about the same distance the times even in the 1950s were longer. Anyone have some guide times?
3. There is not the available terrain to build a decent speed route midwest - Florida. Until Indianna and Ohio + Northern Illinois gets their HSR going the gateways of Louisville and Cincinnati ( less than 300 miles ) HSR could make those citys non stop in 3 hours (9+ hrs now).
4. Cincinnati - ATL is 460+ miles but the terrain is NE - SW (glacier mountains and hills) and the present routes through that area are well built freight routes but not even MSR capable. South of ATL the ex ACL route to JAX is probably the best but still has some impediments.
5. What is this slow time equal to? More equipment to cover the route. ( 4 - 5 sets per daily train ) Crew cost much higher due to longer on duty times for all crew. Probably 1.5 - 1.7 times as much as NYP - FLA.
6. The expense of making all new intermediate stations fully compliant at abo
My “Monunental” rail trip was from Sydney, NS to San Francisco, CA in August of 1947. Seven days/six nights on Pullman cars. CN to CHI; Milw?, or CNW?/ UP to San Francisco. I was 10 y-o-a, and assume I was a terror to the other passengers! Sorry, if you were aboard, but I won’t send you my address.
The worst thing that ever happened to Florida is “Disneyworld”, and all of the subsequent media-hype attractions! It was a nice place to live, before loons started walking around in “mouse ears”. They should have stayed in California! California deserves them! Why would anyone want to go to Florida and be so far from a beach, as in Orlando? Loons, I say! I don’t know why the Autotrain, from Louisville, failed. Was that too far to drive from CHI? Seems to me that the route is as viable as the east coast one. There were lots of “name trains” on the route, back in the days. I think one would work now! Of course, the ‘vacationers’ in Florida are divided: easterners on the Atlantic coast, midwesterners on the Gulf coast. The twain shall never meet! Please stay on the Gulf shores, y’all, but don’t eat anything you find in the water!
Neither do I. Remember near the end the Louisville Auto train depot was used for the Floridian and the Auto train was attached to the end of the Floridian. Probably was the timekeeping of the Floridian.
Actually if Amtrak had the equipment (would take 3 sets IMHO ) another /Auto train operation seems to be very do able. Amtrak could schedule it so most trains would arrive at endpoints before schedule. Sanford of course is the southern choice but I have no idea if Louisville is even available. (does Amtrak still control Louisville station?). The lack of decent trackage north of Louisville or Cincinnati almost precludes going north of there yet. T
The present Auto train almost meets all avoidable costs and probably will once the additional rolling stock becomes available (when? – I have no idea. How many cars? – At least 2 SLs are going to it under ARRA but EB builder is first). The CSX limitation of 50 cars for Amtrak auto train will need to be negotiated up ward. Not having to provide any stations except one for servicing would greatly reduce start up costs. Intermediate station times would not be such a consideration as the many infrastructure costs we see with other routes (PRIIA) would not be necessary.
It was noted above that you can get there via the CIty of New Orleans, then over to Jax.
Chicago to ATL is about 710 miles. If you’d run a connecting service that meets the City of New Orleans from Memphis to ATL to Jax, you could get from CHI to ATL in about 950 miles, then on to FLA. It would save 200 miles vs going via New Orleans and arguably some time, but probably still isn’t a marketable service.
I will bite my tongue and not get into the ignorance of the above post…[|(] The main problem is there is not a good route to get to Florida from Chicago. The C&EI line down through Nashville and points south would be the best, but it is far from straight. Extending City of New Orleans is a no go cost wise, as I am sure that Amtrak would be required to cover the cost of PTC for most of the New Orleans to Jax route.
I thought I read somewhere that CSX is using or is thinking of using other route options for through traffic over that line. Perhaps they at least expect to route haz mat traffic away form that line just to avoid the PTC cost.
Didn’t one of the CSX CEO’s state publicly that “Over my dead body would I ever allow a Chicago-Florida passenger train”? I seem to remember reading that somewhere. I’ve asked the question before on why Auto-Train never resumed operations Louisville to Florida under Amtrak. Part of it is steep Capital investment for additional equipment BUT I think stiff railroad opposition is the other part.