I’m modeling a three car Passenger train being pulled by a GP-38 so in real life how would power be Generated for lights and AC , does it come right form the Locomotive or have a generator car ? If there is a generator car how would that be modeled ? Thanks for any Info on this .
In modern times, power would come from the locomotive, much like it does on Amtrak. Years ago, in the steam era, most cars had axle-mounted generators and batteries (for when they were stopped). I have a couple photos showing Southern Railway had generator cars, but they were intended for use when the train would be parked for some time.
Brad
Is your consits head end power as is the norm today or steam generated? There were examples of purpose built steam generator cars, the former GN examples aquired by the Western Pacific come to mind, then there are the HEP examples that generate head end power by means of a self contained power plant and generator(s). You could do as the prototype frequently did, convert an existing baggage/RPO. Or you could opt for a purpose built 4 axle model, the GP40P that was equipped with a steam generator, and, if memory serves, Mexico had the only GP38’s factory built with a steam generator, this necessitated a high short hood in manner of N&W & Southern power.
Dave
I’m modeling the modern day so I guess it be head end power , what I’m model is a like the Santa Fe southern railway in NM that pull a mix passengers and freight on a mix train . Here is a photo of what I’m trying to model .
Modern day would most likely use HEP from the locomotive. As Dave says, early locomotives had steam generators, but it’s worth clarifying, these were essentially small boilers intended for providing heat to the cars. These were NOT intended for producing electricity - steam powered electric generators would use too much steam. Somewhere I read in the forums (I think) that Amtrak, in the early days, had to run Heritage cars with Heritage locomotives, since the older cars still relied on steam heat and the older locomotives were set up to provide it. As time went by, they bought new locomotives set up for HEP, and cars to use it. I expect older cars were refitted with electric heat during this transition, or simply retired.
If I were modeling a modern day mixed consist, the passenger cars would probably ride behind the locomotives so they could draw power, and to reduce excessive jostling from coupler slack. I wouldn’t expect to see passenger cars on a local freight, too much stop-and-go, back-and-forth switching.
Brad
Mixed train operations are a bit different, in this case the car would be self contained as most are today. If you still have designs on a power car, let me offer this: Former SF lightweight baggage conversion, you need to cut out a section in the sides for air intake assemblies which I would locate between the doors, on the roof you would at a minium need several large exhaust mufflers and 1-2 fans, in HO, one could use 36’ castings, no need for for further body mods.
Dave
That’s why Amtrak leased and offered to purchase espee’s 10 unit SDP45 fleet, with the pending retirement of the trainmaster fleet, espee wasn’t interested but they did agree to selling off the FP7’s fleet to the national carrier as they had no future value.
Dave
Thanks for all info ,would just puting a B unit btween the locomotive and passenger car work ?
Dave is right in that I would expect such an operation in this day and time would likely have self-contained cars. They would probably mount a small diesel generator on each car, especially for just 2-3 cars. Southern Railway’s power cars were much like the SF units described, they cut out sections for air intake, radiator and cooling, and mufflers (Don’t remember if they were inside the carbody or out). Yes, Southern used some of their old F-series B units for steam-generator cars, scale-test cars, mid-train-radio-control cars, and I wouldn’t be surprised to see one set up as a power generator car.
Brad
B unit would suffice and there is prototype precedence for this as well.
Dave
One other consideration, applicable to some eras and some states. At times, state laws forbid running passenger-carrying cars in front of freight cars. The theory is that freight cars, especially a lot of them, are much heavier and more massive than passenger cars. In case of a collision on the front end, the freight cars would continue coming by momentum and tend to crush passenger cars and the people in them.
Most pre-Amtrak mixed trains I have seen had passenger car at end of train.
Not really, no. You wouldn’t drag along an engine at the tail end of the mixed train.
Basically there are two options:
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car is self-contained and uses batteries recharged using an axle-driven generator
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car gets electrical power from an outside source. (modern way of doing things)
On most modern passenger trains, head-end-power is provided from the locomotive, but the locomotive has to have a separate dedicated electrical generator (the main generator that supplies power to the traction motors does NOT provide power for attached passenger cars). This is why locomotives are specifically designed for modern passenger service.
A GP38 is a freight unit that does not have a generator for head-end-power. If you want to use an engine that doesn’t have its own power generator you need to install a generator in a car. These electrical generator cars are often converted from old baggage or express cars, or sometimes even the shells of old “B-units” - so this will superficially look like a B-unit is being dragged along, but it’s not really a B-unit anymore… Often the exhaust and body details will be significantly modified.
Now, the passenger coach shown in the photo above is an older heavyweight style. These were built with axle generators and steam heating. This could have been rebuilt to electric heating and head-end-power. Either way, if you want to provide heating, you’ll need a separate steam generator (boiler) or electrical generator car paired with the coach since it is being handled at the rear of the mixed train, and the locomotive you have does not provide either steam or electrical power.
Exactly.
If you want to provide heating to the older cars, you need an external source of steam (from either the locomotives or a separate steam generator car). Although if it’s in the middle of the summer and hot out, you can get away with running the train without the steam car.
For the newer cars with head-end-power, the heating, A/C and lighting is all run off the head-end-power. So you absolutely need a HEP-equipped locomotive or separate power car.
Obviously you absolutely cannot mix steam and HEP equipment in the same train, as the systems are not compatible. Some older cars were eventually rebuilt for head end power, other old cars not worth upgrading were simply retired and replaced with new equipment.
As someone else pointed out above, there are actually rules about handling occupied equipment at the REAR of the train. The passenger coach would not be between the engines and the freight cars.
Mixed trains were used on remote lightly traveled branchlines, and would have indeed handled local work and the passengers. In most cases the mixed would be the only train to operate on the line (of course there are exceptions).
Mixed trains are also of
Thanks for the more Info . My plan is in to eventually buy a full dome car and dinner for this train and not a run a mix train anymore .To Model a generator car I could use a B unit that would easy to model a generator car ?
A gutted out B unit with the generator for HEP is a good choice. Or a old baggage car with the HEP power plant in it. UP & BNSF have converted head end cars that provide power for their business trains. Previous to Amtrak, many Mis-Western roads had dedicated steam heater cars to provide the boiler heat function if they were using freight power on a passenger train, or needed additional heating capacity in winter months. The CB&Q had special ‘power cars’ that were made from converted HW equipment to provide the HEP for their Chicago commuter cars.
The Algoma Central tourist train has passenger cars with their own heat and power generation. They lost some seating/storage capacity and one end of each car, but they are self contained.
It’s your railroad - do as you wish!
Jim
Ineed…The combine would be at the rear due to the switching involved…Any facing point setout would be done on the return trip so the combined would be on the rear.
Also,stock cars would not be placed next to the combine…
However…
Like all things railroad I did see a photo of a mixed freight that hand 4 cattle cars behind the combined with 7 or 8 40’ boxcars between the engine and combined.
The reason this photo caught my attention the power was a fat boilered 4-6-0.
All the full dome cars supplied by Princess Cruises and Holland-America on the McKinley Explorer were all self contained units, with the additional Alaska RR cars all powered by a steam generator car as the normal power when I lived there was a couple of GP40-2’s.
I know the Full Dome cars were self contained as the company I worked for supplied each car with diesel fuel when they were in the Anchorage yard.
Rick J
Here’s one conversion posted on the old Atlas Forum. This car reminds me of the old PB locomotive converted to a HEP car for the Rio Grande Ski Train:
Here is an illustration of a power generator on a KATY caboose. There is a battery case next to the the generator assembly. On the top right of the photograph is a power plug for longer stationary use. IMO
Photo taken at Frontier Park in St. Charles Mo. on old Katy tracks.
Enjoy
Lee
The Rio Grande car in your pic appears to be a heavyweight car painted in postwar streamliner colors. It would have been built using steam heat and battery power for electricity.
If you’re modelling a modern-day train, like an excursion or dinner train, it could still run on steam and battery, but probably would be converted to HEP. Amtrak began phasing out the F40PH many years back, so maybe your railroad could have picked up a used one to use on their passenger train??