Boy I am tired of posting this question. As Don Gibson and other know I have been bit-hing about the lack of power from my now dead (dropped it to many times) MRC 1440. Then Darrel that does not post much let me use is MRC 2500. Bought a used MRC 260 and it shut down fast with 3 PK’s and a Super Wegith BB’s that the 2500 could handel but where slow.
I got sick of messing with used stuff and bought a NIB MRC 6200 and thought the problem was over and is to a point. Slow speeds are much better and all engines pull well. But first hint I may have a problem was when Darth Santa Fe sent me back my Dash 9 he worked on. (missed matched junk I bought off E-bay but Club gave me my money back). When I first got it I ran it one time solo and was way quiter. Then I ran it with 3 PK’s and that when the MRC 6200 started up. After a few seconds it shut down, restarted, shut down restarted then shut down period. Shut off the power, let it cool down and refired, nothing. Pulled the Dash 9 hit the power, nothing? Just before I pulled the 6200 I tapped it and there was power? All was good again in my little train world.
I did tell K-10 trains about what happen and he offred me my money back, but he would not sell me any other thottles. Seems he had a rash of Dum A-s that where burn up thottles my laying screw drivers across the rail stuff. Told him it was working fine, but after it shut down and I tapped it it was fine.
Tonight I added some more freight on the A line which is running a old BB GE-C rocket motor (think that is the right term) and hauling 24 cheap but worked Tyco, LL and Bachman’s. B line (same thottle at this point) has a Tripled headed E-6 A and B and Eerie Bulit B all powerd with 43 cars. Mainly Athearns with PK 2000 wheels and pull well.
One of the ways I test my work is to crank up to the thottle to 100% after I have added new cars. I added 4 tonight. With the 4 car’s less last night at 100% there was no
I am a little confused. You mention the MRC 6200, but you also say MRC 2600. Which is it?
I don’t think the long run of wire is your problem. That would only reduce the voltage and slow down the locos slightly.
The problem is you are tripping the built in circuit breaker.
Here are the Specs for the MRC 6200:
Mode I: 0-18.5 Volts DC, 35 VA Max, 18 Volts AC; Total: 60VA
Mode II: 0 to 14 Volts DC, 27VA Max, 18 Volts AC; Total 52VA
Output Amps: 2.5
If you are running Mode II at full throttle with a total of 4 locos you might be exceeding the 27VA or 2.5 amp maximum.
I suppose that even if you are not exceeding these limits, running a big electrical load over a long period of time may be causing the transformer to heat up and trip the circuit breaker.
Maybe your next investment should be an Voltmeter/Ammeter to see what the total amps are.
The wire from the power pack to the buss line should be the same guage, at least 18, 16 or 14 guage would be better. The 24 guage is waaaay too small, that’s like try to fill a swimming pool with a straw. The bigger the wire, the less resistance, the more electricity will flow.
The feeder wires shouldn’t be any longer than 12" or so. You can branch off the main buss with equal guage branches to get closer to the feeders if you need to.
It seems to me that full current (amps) is not getting through that 24 guage wire from the power pack to the track. It’s getting bottled up in the power pack as heat and tripping the circuit breaker.
Power consumption is also important. Most ATlas engines use about .3 to.5 amps with no load, P2K E-8/9 use about .5 to .8 amps no load. Those 3 locos pulling a 40 car train are probably demanding close to the maximum 2.5 amp load of the power pack and due to the restriction of the 24 guage hook up wire, causing the pack to get hot and eventually overheat and shut down.
That’s the best I can deduce without being there.
I used to run 3 loco with 50-60 cars routinely with my MRC 2500, but the layout was wired with 16 gauge buss lines and 22 gauge feeders every 6 to 10 feet, (I have no idea how many, there were a lot). Nickelsilver rail is actually a poor conductor of electricity (much higher resistance than copper wire), hence the need for the copper wire. buss and feeders.
I do not think those 4 locos shoud be exceeding 2.5 amps. The problem is in the tiny 24 gauge wire. WAY too small for that kind of load. That would explain the slowdowns as well, there is just too much voltage loss in the wires.
I will not argue with the recommendations to replace your 24 guage bus wire with a heavier guage. However, had you touched this bus wire when your power packs shut down, it probably would feel hot. Wire current rating is based on an allowable temperature increase in the wire (it may be 50 degrees Farenhiet). When you overload a wire, it continues to heat up until it gets hot enough to ignite something nearby. During this heating, the effective resistance of the wire increases as the temperature increases. This, in turn, puts an added load on your power pack and causes it to shut down while every thing else remains cool to the touch.
By the way, other forum responses have recommended 16 or 18 guage bus wires with feeders located along every three feet or joint in the track.&
Gotta tell you Cudaken, for all the troubles you’ve been having, it’s great to see you hang in there. Honestly, even when I was a kid and first got into the hobby, I never had the number of problems you’ve been unlucky enough to run into. You’re a trooper!
Get yourself a new power pack, and heavier, shorter bus wire. Solder your feeders. Trust me, it sounds like work, but in the end, you’ll be rewarded with no power drops. MRC DC power packs are the best you can buy, even if their DCC isn’t. Don’t let this sour you on MRC DC power.
Ken, your wiring is inadequate (too small) for the loads. Losses in the wiring due to poor connections or undersized wire will cause the very symptoms you are complaining about
I tested a MRC 2500 with 4 P2K SD 60s and current draw was 1.1 amps @ 100% throttle and 1.7 amps with the wheels slipping, which is the most you will ever see. All of your packs cannot be defective. You can fix this problem 2 ways:
The first is to purchase and learn to use a DMM. Sears has some nice ones that go on sale for around $20. You will be able to find out exactly where your power is being lost by using the voltage drop method. Measuring current draw is nice but will only tell you what your load is, not where the problem is. The instructions with the meter should show you how to use it or else you can always post a question here.
The second is to begin by replacing your tiny 24-gauge wire with some 14-gauge. Run the 14-gauge wire from the pack to the feeders. You can use 18-gauge for the feeders to the joiners but keep the length short.
When you eliminate voltage losses you are able to get all of the power you paid for to the motor of the locos, where it belongs.
One other comment; laying a screwdriver across rails does not ruin MRC packs.
Ken, the reason a light bulb glows is that the full household current is trying to get through hair-thin filaments of tungsten wire. The thin wire acts like trying to poke a twig into and out the other end of a plastic straw! It can be done, but holy smoke! The bulb filament glows because it is resisting all the current trying to cross it, and it must dissipate the resistance as heat…so much heat that the metal gets white hot.
Even with your transformed 2.5 amp current, the very thin wires want to resist it and they act like the bulb filament, or even like cooking stove elements. They will get warm! Warm means too much current for the thickness of the wire.
Your wires coming from the transformer should be about 14 gauge, although 16 would be okay. I would go no smaller than 18-22 gauge for short feeders coming off the 14 gauge bus. Short as in about 18" if you can manage it.
I add my voice to those who congratulate you for hanging in when you keep encountering obstacles. It will be ssooooooooooo worth it when you finally look around you one night and say to yourself, “Hey, this is okay!”
So far, I’d go with Randy’s assesment. Having 24 gauge wire on that is like trying to suck a golf ball through a garden hose. I knew a girl in high school who could do that, but that’s a different story.
Yes, you could run a single service, but not a household on 14 gauge. Your in-service would have to be near 8 gauge for the 220, and then down to 12 gauge for most rooms. 14 gauge is what I suggest for the bus, and yes it is overkill, but it is cheap and keeps voltage high.
Also, whether or not it is justifiable, it is what most of the more senior and experienced modellers recommend, particularly if you are going to have increasing demands on the service over time…as Ken seems to be finding out.
Yes, use larger wire, across the board. Also, I haven’t tested any MRC’s lately, but I have several and they are very good, within their limits. However, transformers in general, only put out about half their rated power on a continuous basis. Back in my DC days, I noticed consists of three locos would not run very fast and had problems with grades, whereas double locos didn’t seem to have the problem. I had a volt meter and amp meter built into the system and the load was 1.25 amps. I thought no problem cause I have a 2.5 amp tansformer running the line. Wrong. When I was having my stereo amp fixed (dropped a skrew driver into it while it was on, yes Jim, that does ruin a stereo amp) I discussed the transformer lack of power with my electronics guru. He calmy explained the constant power was about half the rated power and that was the way it is, unless you get high efficiency transformers. Like what? I asked. Computer power packs was his answer.
So, I happened to see a couple of old IBM laptop power packs on sale and thought I’d try them out. Sure enough, they put out about 92% of their rated power and I had no problems after that. The moral? Always buy more power than you think you’ll need, if you have it you don’t have to use it, but if you don’t have it… you don’t have it!
You TRY everything! - Nothing seems to work!. You don’t know why!
METERS METERS METERS METERS METERS METERS
You ask (Beg) for help - and don’t take it. Much Easier to ignore your ‘circular’ post’s. Why should anyone take on your (largely) self-imposed problems? - So you want to play trains.
The MRC 9500 has METERS - should tell you what’s wrong… and by putting on engine / car at-a-time, (what?) and tell youwhere!
YOUR PROBLEMS suggest a slight short circuit, whisker wire touching, metal wheel on backwards**.** MORE power than 30 VA should not be an aswer, until you know WHAT the problem is - and WHERE.
METERS METERS METERS METERS METERS METERS
Perhaps your LHS can set you up with a cusomer to come over and troubleshoot your problem for you.
Gotta go along with the meter suggestion. Radio Shack has them even cheaper. 24 ga wire is too small, but that will NOT cause the pack to trip. In fact the wire should act as a choke and prevent the pack from tripping. Of course I would expect it to get hot in the process. V=IR Too small a wire raises R, which lowers I (amps) at the same voltage. I have run as many as eight (8) locos on one MRC 2400 just to see what would happen. Result was the same as if there had been just one loco, except a couple of Athearn BBs were really slipping the wheels trying to drag the rest faster.
Something, somewhere, is wrong in my opinion. Get some metering or get a glove so you don’t hurt your hand smacking that pack (P.S. - if you wait longer it will probably reset without the whack).
Though the majority of posts here are 100% correct, they are all written with the normal modeller in mind.
In the case of an ex-drag-racer who runs hundred car trains at only slightly subsonic velocities, I believe you should take their advice and multiply by at least an order of magnitude.
Why screw around with puny 10, or even 8 gauge, conductors on your main buss, get serious and hang some 1:1 130 pound rail under your layout, and your power delivery issues will be a thing of the past, at least up to 30 Mv and 100 kA.
Once you have your fat pipes in right, you may have to replace your power pack because of damage sustained already, buit I think Con-Ed offers quantity discounts on 200 kV transmission transformers, and these will allow you to operate at your normal consumption levels without further concern.
If you have a particularly demanding experiment in mind, you might ping us 24 to 48 hours in advance, so we can amputate before you bring down the US grid.
I had almost the same problem. I would run 3 to 4 Atheran BB’s with the gold motor ( not the black jet motor, they suck way too much juice ) for about and hour and the pack ( a MRC 260 ) would heat up and quit. I would shut it off for about 15 minutes and it would clear up for another hour. I used another pack (Same Type MRC 260) on the same line for several hours with the same locomotives without a problem for several hours. All the wire on my layout is 22 guage and the main feeders to the panel are about 16" long and the longest track feeder is about 5’ from the panel to the track. I contacted MRC and they had me send the pack in, come to find out the pack was bad, I do not know the exact reason but it was defective. I got a new pack and things work great. I run consists of 3-4 head end power with locomotives made from Proto, Atlas, Athearn, Spectrum and Kato for hours on end without the pack or anything else getting hot with only 22 guage wire. I do think that 24 guage is too small but I cant see the need for anything larger than 22 or 18 unless you have a super layout and mine is 24’ X 36’. Yes I am a dinosaur thats why I am on DC still.
Test meters are so cheap now, I cannot understand why every one doesn’t own one. You can get them at auto part stores, Home Depot, Lowes, Sears…good Lord, go BUY one.!! Then, you can easily measure the voltages and troubleshoot your problem. This isn’t rocket science, it is E=IR , where E is the voltage, I is the current, and R is the resistance. A test meter is a device that every modeler needs to have…end of story!
Don, as I said before I do listen. That is why I am pulling the freight I am and not throwing or crying about selling the stuff any longer. When I bought the new thottle I really wanted the 9500, I like the metter idea. But the 6200 had more power for only $5.00 more so I gave up the meters and other options I wish the 6200 had. I did try a meter I have, but it is junk so off to Radio Shack when I have the cash. I am sure it is not a lose wire that comes in and out of contack with each other. Used spade fittings (think that is the right term) to hook the wires to the thottle.
Dave Vollmer and Selector, thanks for the support and one thing I am not is a quiter. You tell me I cannot do something I will worker harder to make sure I can do it. Someone this board told me I was wasting my time with the cheap cars with Targo (is that the right word) push in trucks with horn coupler’s. Yet with a little effort the old BB GE-C is hauling 27 of the horn hooked cheap cars. Even with the current question I am having a blast! I am hauling 69 freight cars and 2 cobooses and no big problems for around 250 hours.
I am confused about a few terms, and this may help me understand the great answers I have recivied.
1 What is a Bus Wire?
2 Feeder wire, is this the wire that go to the rail? If so, how do you keep it 12" long?
Tilden, you are preching to the chore when you are talking about more power than you need![:D] Beside being a big time gear head with a 685 HP street car here are some PIC of my babys.
They are the soul of my stereo in the garage. Adcom GFA-555’s mono blocked at 600 watts a side at 8 OHM’s. There is a fan behinde them to cool the heat sinks for when I am cranking some Bach, or Billy Idol.[:)]
Far as wire, being a audiophiple I know what the good stuff is.
Ken, the bus wire should be the thicker, main wire that comes directly from your power source. It is the wire from which the feeder wires, thinner ones, feed the tracks directly. So, you want a thicker wire to minimize any voltage drop, but that bus wire only needs to “closely” follow the main lines of your tracks. Typically, it might be a pair of wires only 10 feet long! In your case, with some thinking, I’ll be your bus wires will only have to be about that long. Maybe that long, but going out from your power pack in opposite directions if you bench is long and your controller is centered along the bench.
By close, I mean that the bus only has to run more or less parallel to the main loop or line of tracks, but not directly below it. So, the thinner feeders shoot off that bus and meet the metal rails here and there, and longer feeders may have to reach over to spurs or industrial tracks that leave the main line.
When I say to try to keep the feeders short, this is an ideal situation, and it may not always be possible. The reason for keeping them short is the same reason for keeping the bus wire thick and short; you want to keep the voltage dropping distances as short as you can in every instance. So, run your thinner wire feeders to the tracks every 3-10 feet, but do it whenever the bus is closest to the rails that you are trying to power. That keeps the more voltage “unfriendly” feeders as short as possible so that you have less voltage drop. Less voltage drop all along the rail system means more amperage can be provided right to the rails to do the work. It isn’t the voltage that does the work, the voltage acts like a river for the amperage “boats”. The amperage is what carries the energy to make your motors haul more cars.
You inherited an assortment of other-peoples problems.
You got in over your head. (stop me anytime).
3.You tend toward Overkill.
You get frustrated easily.
You want to ‘play trains’ - (on the cheap). Would you buy a used Parachute?
SOLUTION 1. Acquire the TOOLS to correct each and every problem. NMRA gage, etc. Buy them NEW to receive the instructions. LEARN to use them. SOLUTION 2. Start over.
2.5 ampsshould be enought for old Athearn Engines. If you are pulling more than that, someting is wrong! FIND IT. ISOLATE IT.
An MRC 9500 is the onlysupply currently offered with meters. It can be purchased new for $70 - $80 and can tell you how much power EACH piece of equipment is consuming, as well as the total.
If nothing else, it could tell you WHICH pieces of equipment should get ‘thrown against the wall’. Nothing works until you do.
