Going From Solo Operator to 2-Man Operations

Model Railroader General Discussion (Model Railroader)
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Fellow forum member, Motley, took a flight from Denver to Chicago for two days of golf and model railroading.

We had a great time, but the model railroading aspect of the visit raised some issues and questions.

Neither of us had ever participated in an operating session with others, so this was a first time experience for both of us.

My layout is a double mainline continuous loop with a freight yard and engine servicing facility, a large downtown passenger station and a passenger coach yard, a suburban passenger station, and several sidings, spurs, etc. It is an HO scale, DCC powered layout with wireless throttles.

It is a freelance, transition area layout featuring both steam and diesel.

Lots and lots of turnouts and crossovers, mostly powered by Tortoises operated by DPDT switches on a series of four control panels, but also some manual ground throws in the passenger coach yard and station.

I issued a series of train orders for each day and we managed to successfully complete these train orders with some snafus along the way, namely a few derailments and operator errors due to distractions helping one another.

Our biggest issue was throwing and resetting turnout switches. And, that raises our first question. In a two man operating session with each man operating trains, who is responsible for resetting switches. The guy who threw the switch? Or the guy who needs the switch reset?

What do others do in a 2-man operating session? Does one man act as dispatcher and the other as engineer? That makes some sense. Let one man act as dispatcher throwing and resetting switches while the other man acts as engineer, operating trains on both mainlines. What we did was to assign one engineer the responsibilty for operating all “westbound” trains on Track 1 (the outer mainline track) and the other engineer the responsibility for operating all “eastbound” trains on Track 2 (the inner main

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My layout, (12x23), is a double track folded figure 8 mainline, plus a branch line and a freight yard (single ended holds 120 cars) and an engine terminal (holds about 20 locos plus 2 service tracks. There’s little switching on the main other than the entrance and exits for the yard and a couple of spurs, (I will be adding more). The yard and the branch line (or local) is where most of the switching happens. We mostly operate with 2-man crews, an engineer who runs the motive power and a conductor/brakeman that operates the turnouts and the coupling operations, no dispatcher at this time. Most of the turnouts are near enough to operate with ground throws. Those with switch motors are grouped together and are operated from small local panels… We build trains for the main line and let them loose on the mains, one in each direction, (usually about 40-60 cars each). My track is bulletproof, haven’t had a mishap on the track that wasn’t cause by a human or animal in many years, if you leave the trains alone they’ll run unattended untill their motors burn out! When we have multiple crews then the mainline trains can drop off and pick up cars.

Once we get the two mainline trains out, then we’ll start assembling the local (1 or 2 locos, 10-20 cars) and then run the local, still with the two man crew. The local takes about 30 to 45 minutes, there’s a car float that has to be switched out on some runs. Once the local returns to the yard it gets switched and blocked for the next mainline train. I can accomodate 3 2-man crews for more fun. I run with NCE DCC.

The layout will eventually be a point-to-point double decker, at the moment though there’s not yet any track on the upper level, (which is built) and a helix is yet to be built which will be in the next room (the furnace room).and will include a staging yard. Right now we’re enjoying the roundy-roundy, playing and working out any bugs (we’re pretty much done with that part). Also building buildings and working on the scenery.

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Hi!

First I must make a disclaimer… I have never been involved in operations with others (not counting grandkids of course) and have no experience to speak from.

But I was thinking… with only two folks working such a large layout as Rich described, it seems like more folks would be needed to run full operations. And given the size of the layout, that should not be a problem (spacewise).

Rich does pose some interesting questions, and even this “lone wolf” looks forward to hearing from you operations gurus.

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Rich,

Now you will start to understand the importance of what we have been discussing privately.

First, I don’t know any modelers who do operating sessions and have one person operate more than one train at a time.

I belong to a round robin group that is very into operation. Typically on any of these layouts it works similar to this.

Each train has a train order and a crew. A mainline train typically only needs a crew of one, to be the engineer, conductor and brakeman, taking his instructions from his train order and/or a dispatcher.

Trains that have a lot of switching to do typically have a crew of two, one person to run the loco (engineer) and the other (conductor & brakeman) to throw turnouts, uncouple cars, read and understand the train order, etc.

Many layouts use dispatchers via radios to give instructions, many dispatchers have some sort of track diagram board to keep track of train locations.

Some have (or will have) CTC signaling to give instruction to mainline trains.

Generally, each crew is responsable for leaving turnouts set in their “normal” position unless it is a CTC controlled mainline. With CTC the dispatcher has master control of mainline turnouts and aligns them as part of giving trackage rights to each train.

On one layout in particular, we use not only two man crews and a dispatcher, but also three or four “tower operators”, each one being responsable for the turnouts and trackage asignments for a different “district”. This layout is set in a time when the real railroads used telegraph and station agents to control trains without automatic signals.

On that layout four trains at a time move around a long point to point layout, some doing switching, in opposite directions. As each train finishes its work, others leave one of the two end point yards. Typically a dozen or more train run ina three hour session. That layout is DC powered wih a control system similar to my layout.

Hope this

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Rich

Having built my current layout for Operations ONLY - I have NO continuous loops as the real railroads never had this (special cases excluded)!

I gathered a lot of experience before ever starting the new layout from many years in a MRR Club and seeing the continuous run OPs

It didn’t work then and it still doesn’t work now at the Club (Serious OPs with a roundy round layout).

I also operated on as many other private layouts as possible to see how they did it.

This helped me design a layout that was Operator friendly.

Also building a prototypically accurate design from an actual railroad - pretty much insured that I should be able to figure out how the real RR did it.

The layout is working as I had planned and can support operations for 20 plus and we are not in each others road (although some would beg to differ)! :wink:

As for resetting the turnouts - a rule on my layout is the turnouts are to be reset for the Mainline (Green) and I try to stay with Manual Ground Throws for the majority of my turnouts.

Each operator only runs one train at a time (although they may have 2 or 3 engines MUed together and can unMU them and use the engines individually to do switching with an engine on each end of the train so they can speed up the switching of Facing point turnouts (if their DCC Throttle supports this option).

My layout is strictly Switching with a few thru Freights so there is NO Passenger OPs to speak of.

Coal was the main source of revenue and the reason this section of the Conrail to exist!

I tried to minimize the need to have any control panels (had to go against my wishes for the Hidden Staging) as I want to run the trains NOT the track.

I saw this too much on the Club layout as the members don’t want to learn the control panels - just want to run the trains because they might have to study the control panels to figure out the proper switch to flip.

We ended up removing ALL control panels

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Bob,

Those are all great points and should also help Rich in his quest for operation.

I do have a few comments based on Bobs thoughts.

Layouts can be effectively designed to provide both point to point operation and continous display running. In fact hidden thru stagging is in my view one of the most effective schemes for simulating mainline operations. And thru stagging with reversing loops is even better.

Personally, I don’t care for layouts that are ALL switching, but that is partly biased by my era of interest and my interest in passenger operation and mainline CTC operation.

As a design point, my previous layout and my next layout both contain continous routes, thru stagging and seperate industrial belt lines that keep most of the switching OFF the mainline - just like many rail operations in most major metro areas.

Control panels - Because I model CTC operations, there is a CTC panel - and it’s not on some computer screen.

I also have small, easy to understand, local tower panels at each mainline interlocking - again CTC requires remote controlled turnouts.

I also use manual ground throw turnouts - in the same locations the prototype does - yards, engine terminals, industrial areas, etc.

My controls are such that the layout can be operated by a large crew with CTC, or by a smaller crew with simple “walk around”, or in “display mode” with 5-6 trains on seperate routes.

While in display mode, one or more operators can also work the yards and industrial trackage seperately.

So it works for lots of action with just one person, or lots more with 12-15. As four trains travel the double track mainline, yards and industries are switched, engine terminal and passenger terminal switching can also be done.

And, there are few “on line” industries to switched by a local on the main line.

For me it was about being able to have all three, one man operation, display operation and true ops sessions regardles

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Sheldon, you’re right. Believe, I thought about those discussions many, many times during the operating sessions. Your method insures that the turnouts will be reset. During our sessions, we simply could not decide who had the responsibilty. Should the crew who threw the switch be sure to reset it or should the crew approaching the thrown switch make certain that the switch has been reset.

You need to have a protocol to follow or disaster is lurking in the shadows.

Rich

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Bob H.

I hear what you are saying about continuous loops, and I suppose every continuous loop layout is, in essence, a roundy-round layout. But, I resist admitting to that because my layout is not an oval or anything like that. It is a continuous loop, but the layout is an open P-shape that stretches along two walls of the basement and measures 25’ x 42’. So, it doesn’t seem like a roundy-round with engines chasing cabooses. There are plenty of turnouts and crossovers to yards and sidings, plus two reversing sections to completely turn trains around and return them in the direction from which they came.

Rich

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[quote user=“modelmaker51”]

My layout, (12x23), is a double track folded figure 8 mainline, plus a branch line and a freight yard (single ended holds 120 cars) and an engine terminal (holds about 20 locos plus 2 service tracks. There’s little switching on the main other than the entrance and exits for the yard and a couple of spurs, (I will be adding more). The yard and the branch line (or local) is where most of the switching happens. We mostly operate with 2-man crews, an engineer who runs the motive power and a conductor/brakeman that operates the turnouts and the coupling operations, no dispatcher at this time. Most of the turnouts are near enough to operate with ground throws. Those with switch motors are grouped together and are operated from small local panels… We build trains for the main line and let them loose on the mains, one in each direction, (usually about 40-60 cars each). My track is bulletproof, haven’t had a mishap on the track that wasn’t cause by a human or animal in many years, if you leave the trains alone they’ll run unattended untill their motors burn out! When we have multiple crews then the mainline trains can drop off and pick up cars.

Once we get the two mainline trains out, then we’ll start assembling the local (1 or 2 locos, 10-20 cars) and then run the local, still with the two man crew. The local takes about 30 to 45 minutes, there’s a car float that has to be switched out on some runs. Once the local returns to the yard it gets switched and blocked for the next mainline train. I can accomodate 3 2-man crews for more fun. I run with NCE DCC.

The layout will eventually be a point-to-point double decker, at the moment though there’s not yet any track on the upper level, (which is built) and a helix is yet to be built which will be in the next room (the furnace room).and will include a staging yard. Right now we’re enjoying the roundy-roundy, playing and working out any bugs (we’re pretty much done with that part). Also building bu

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I have a small-ish layout that is in a 9 by 24 foot room. (See pics and schematic below)

This is a single line main, in a loop configuration that runs twice around the room, and represents three different railroads. Each town and switching location has its own mini control panel, and some off-mainline turnouts are hand throws. I have a small yard and loco facilities, a car float at the port, two single ended staging tracks (upper level), and two interchange tracks. (The interchange tracks make the loop.)

The layout operates best with four operators. A Port operator (PRR); a Branch operator (WM RR upper level); a C&A main RR operator; and a Yard operator. Now, I use a computer program to generate switch lists and train manifests. One thing that the program did was to force me to sit down and think about how the layout was to be operated. Car Cards and other formal operating schemes will force you to do the same thing. The result is making up trains that actually do some work. This will then guide you into how many operators are needed for a session.

It took me about a year to get things straight, as there were many changes along the way that had to be made. These were discovered after each session, and were changed before the next session to make things simpler and better. There is also a learning curve for your operators as to how to do things and what needs to

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This is a very informative and helpful thread for me, and I appreciate all of the thoughtful replies.

As I reflect back on my basic question about who has the responsibility for resetting thrown switches (turnouts), I am drawing this conclusion.

As a sole operator, obviously I am responsible for resetting thrown switches though, I must admit, I sometimes forget to do that.

With a 2-man operating session, my feeling is that the man who throws the switch has the responsibility to reset the switch.

With three or more guys participating in an operating session, it seems reasonable for one guy to assume the role of dispatcher, and the dispatcher controls the switches, while the other guys act as engineers and train crews.

Keep it coming.

Rich

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That depends on your “rules of operation” for your railroad, and the function of the operator. If one person is the yard master it is generally their job to throw the switch regardless. If the switch is for a main line passing siding it is generally the dispatchers job. Once again if one person is the dispatcher. If not it is generally a “rule of operation” to set a turnout back to the main. If the turnouts are in industrial tracks it is always the engineers job to look at a turnout before they go blasting through it. In that case it would be the engineer’s fault regardless of how the turnout was left by a prior train. There are many many scenarios, hence the need to sit down and write the rule of operation for that situation.

Once again that is totally dependent on the layout design. Some layouts are not conducive to some forms of operation. One layout I operate on is 100% dispatch control, another has no dispatcher only a schedule with assigned meets. There is also everything in between where scheduled trains only report their position and the locals and extra trains have to have dispatcher permission to move. With just 2 people it will totally depend on the job assigned to them. Obviously one will have to be an engineer. Of course I also find it fun to sometimes have two people work a single train. One person is the engineer/brakeman and another the conductor/switchman.

[quote]
Ideally, on my layout, it would make sense t

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Texas Zepher,

Thanks so much for that detailed reply to each of my questions. It is most appreciated. Lots of food for thought there.

Rich

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Gidday Rich, my observations are made from the perspective of a very occasional part of an operating crew on an other modellers railroad.

"Our biggest issue was throwing and resetting turnout switches. And, that raises our first question. In a two man operating session with each man operating trains, who is responsible for resetting switches. The guy who threw the switch? Or the guy who needs the switch reset? "

As the turnouts on the layout are hand operated it is the responsibility of the guy who threw the switch. Especially important if ti involves a main line turnout.

“Another issue that arose was the amount of traffic. My layout is large, measuring 25’ x 42’, and we tried to operate two trains on each mainline track with a switcher also performing various duties. We were nearly overwhelmed. Continuous operation of six different locos/consists at one time was quite a challenge. What do others do in this regard. What are the practical limits?”

One man, one train. Occasionally if there are spare operators a train crew will consist of an engineer and a conductor / brakeman. As an aside the first time I was assigned a conductor, we had just switched an industry and after getting clearance from the dispatcher to re-enter the main line, my colleague threw the turnout allowing the train back on to the main where upon I then proceeded with the train to our next switching assignment on another part of the layout. On arrival I looked up to see my man still standing back at the last turnout. I hadn’t stopped the train to pick him up after he had reset the turnout. [:$]

"A third issue was realism. Starting and stopping locos, blowing horns and whistles, sequencing of operations such as using the coaling tower, sand towers, picking up water for steamers. Yikes. All of that stuff needs to be done, but it takes forever. How much time do others de

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re: Switch Throwing.

Any hand-operated switch that has a normal position is ALWAYS the responsbility of the person or crew that used it to put it back to the proper position.

A dispatcher doesn’t throw switches. Only powered switches that are part of a CTC control point or interlocking can be thrown by a dispatcher or operator. The dispatcher can’t throw other switches that are hand-operated. Unless you’ve built a fully functional CTC or tower-interlocking system, your dispatcher is not throwing any switches. Even in CTC there are still lots of hand-operated switches out along the line. (They’ll have a electric lock or position indicator that will indicate to the signal system that the switch is open)

A yardmaster doesn’t throw switches. The yardmaster is a desk position. The switch crew working the yard throws their own switches. (On a model railroad these positions may be performed by the same person but this is still an important distinction.)

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I had a great time running Rich’s layout. The pictures don’t do it justice. By far the best passenger themed layout I’ve seen.

In any case, Rich didn’t mention, during our session, he was busy trying to teach me what switches do what, etc, and how to work the control panels. And a couple of occasions he or I was distracted.

I agree with some of the others, we should have run one train each.

But overall, Rich came up with a great set of orders for me, it had some variety but was simple enough for me to understand.

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So, during an operating session on a model railroad, what is the role of the dispatcher? Do you even need one?

Rich

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http://www.gatewaynmra.org/designops.htm

Smile,
Stein

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The following are my thoughts on this subject.

With only two people you are operation more or less as a short line so a dispatcher would have nothing to to.

Not a lot of dispatching with only two trains on the main and maybe a yard switcher.

I see it as doing what is needed for the amount of crews and jobs you are doing.

Each of us needs to decide at what point a dispatcher is needed. Or at what point it would add to the fun.

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Rich, isn’t if fun once it begins to come together? I’ve been doing the same thing with a buddy of mine as you two have. Trying some scenarios and figuring out what isn’t working and why and celebrating when it does! Is it time for an Ops section on this forum?

I would very much like to see an Operations forum section on this site similar to the one that MRH has.

Perhaps this thread could be the start?

I’ve attended more than several Ops sessions on several layouts and it wasn’t until I had a resource and immediate feedback that it is now really starting to come together for me. Books are great but answers to specific and immediate questions are…awesome! I’ve been operating for 4 years now, on others layouts and not every layout owner is a natural teacher or has the time during sessions to answer questions fully before being called away. Also, even with the same systems such as car cards there are a lot of differences from layout to layout due to owner’s proclivities.

With the Ops online forum, many many things I’ve read about or asked about are finally becoming clear. What say ye MR and moderators? Is it time?

Keep us updated on what you guys learn together as you go?

JIm