Good bye, conductors?

Trains Magazine General Discussion
41

I skimmed over the agreements the other day. This forum was a day late.

I know they want to use PTC as an excuse for one man operations. But there are still many factors that still need more than one man, PTC or not. But the people making these decisions never did the work, so what would they know?* (and that includes some union officials).

I am wondering why we bother with fire extinguishers, smoke detectors and AED machines in railroad buildings. I mean, most of the time we don’t need them… so why bother with that extra expense?

*- weren’t we discussing the loss of institutional knowledge a few threads back?

42

Yes Ed… my question was about engineer alone verses engineer and conductor, and I think you and zugman answered it. Thank you.

43

Ok - I am a little slow on the uptake, but they can’t do anything until they get PTC put into place and working without either screwing up or being down.

Next - it was only the BNSF, no one else - yet.

How many years in the future are we talking at this point.

I don’t want to see a one man crew, but they didn’t ask me, either.

Is a drone going to be able to just fly around and go tsk tsk tsk? Or can it lift a knuckle and put it close to where needed? Otherwise, what good is it?

Are we working toward running model trains, only much bigger, much heavier, much faster and from how many states away? I am thinking that PTC will stop the train if the engineer isn’t responsive. Well, fine and good from the train point of view, but what about someone calling about the engineer that is having some kind of a medical problem that renders him alive, but unable to respond or call for help?

Is he/she just collateral damage - sorry about that?

This was going on pre-Buffett, so it isn’t his “dream” all of a sudden.

Anyone want to tackle some answers for me or just continue to grumble about the situation?

44

There are no plans to use drones, what the agreement says is that if drones are used the work belongs exclusively to the master conductors.

There are many more far reaching impacts than drones or knuckles.

45

can you expand on this? And what exactly will a master conductor do and from how far away?

46

From my understanding of the PTC version being deployed, it won’t prevent collisions that happen at restricted speed parameters. Such as Creston, IA a few years ago where one train went past a red intermediate signal (not an absolute) at just above (23 mph IIRC) restricted speed and rear ended the train ahead. There our cases where there is a legitimate and legal need to pass a red signal. PTC allows this at low speeds, the system assuming the train is under control by it’s speed. Sadly, that’s not always the case as Red Oak, and other collisions like it, have proved.

PTC, like any other thing, can also fail. While I would expect most failures to be the system not letting a train move when it should, it would also be possible for it not to stop a train when it should. For that to happen, the human first has to fail first. Since humans have a pretty good record of not failing (the few instances grab head lines and lead to things like PTC) an individual engine’s equipment could be faulty and no one know it. Until it was needed to do what it was supposed to and didn’t. (Not to mention about existing equipment and systems that need to interface with PTC. Like the circuit controller that failed in showing a track occupancy at an open switch in Amtrak’s PTC territory a year or two ago.)

[I know of at least two instances where the CNW/UP’s ATC/cab signal system failed to go to restricting when it should have. One was after the UP added wayside signals and it was following signal indication that prevented a rear end collision. The other was before waysides, except at interlockings. That train’s engine passed the required ATC system test at Clinton. While on dead track (unenergized rails) the cab signal stayed at restricting. Upon entering the live (energized) main track, the cab signal went clear. It stayed clear

47

I don’t think a drone could lift anything heavier than a pizza, which coincidently is what all the pizza delivery guys are afraid of. Lots of kinks to be worked out there too…i.e. what if the pizza drone runs into bad weather…what it drops its load on someone…what if it gets caught in a downdraft… Relax, you won’t get replaced by drone. And if you become a “master conductor” in charge of a bunch of drones… that could be fun (and funny) too.

48

I’m already a master conductor.

Yeah, right.

Whatever. If I can’t railroad, I’ll find another line of work.

49

One man crew, engineer only.

Train separates about halfway back, goes into emergency.

Follow radio rule about such event, radio dispatcher and inform.

Secure the train and locomotive per rule.

Walk back to the break, close the anglecock on the front portion, and assess the damage.

Secure the rear portion of the train by rule, do not close the anglecock on that part, you would bottle the air and risking the rear portion running away

Walk back to the locomotive, get the proper knuckle, let’s be nice and say it was the light one, and carry it back to the break.

You replace the broken knuckle.

Now, the rear and the front portion of the train are separated by, let’s say, a car length…how do you couple up the train if you, the only employee, are at the break?

Walk back to the locomotive, release the securement, recover your air and back up guessing the distance, (feeling for the bump) and there it is…secure the locomotive and train by rule, walk back, lace air hoses back up…now, do you trust the joint /coupling made?

If so, release securement on the rear of the train, hope the EOT plays along and the coupling really made, walk back to the head end, and release the securement and go.

Two man crew, engineer and conductor.

Train separates halfway back goes into emergency

Follow radio rule about such an event, radio dispatcher and inform.

Conductor hops off walks back, finds broken knuckle and torn air hose, radios engineer which type knuckle.

Engineer tosses off E type knuckle, knuckle pin and hose plus wrench; light a fussee, sticks fussee in knuckle.

While engineer is doing that, conductor secures rear portion of train, closes anglecock on only the fr

50

If there’s only person present then only one person can potentially get hurt. Two people can’t get hurt when only one person is present. So from that standpoint fewer workers present translates into fewer injuries on the job i.e. a safer workplace.

51

I am not the brightest marble in this box, but either you have your tongue firmly planted in your cheek or we need to find a quiet room and talk!

52

Yeah.

53

That’s a very comprehensive explanation Ed, thanks for taking the time.

54

I knew you’d agree… :slight_smile:

55

Oh yeah. I’m glad we relocated all railroads into a vacuum in the 1980s (part of the stagger’s act, I guess). That helped a lot.

56

But the only guy in the two man crew doing and dangerous labor is the conductor, who exploits the fact he has an engineer to move the train for him, thereby lessening the amount of labor he has to perform.

Well, the engineer might get tennis elbow, but……

57

I know there are other components to safety. But I did state “from that standpoint”. From another standpoint five sets of eyes might prove safer.

58

Ooo - I am going to have to watch your postings a little more carefully… [:)]

There is something here, I just can’t seem to grasp it. From my standpoint only - I can’t see having something as big as an airliner, or a fully loaded train traveling at more than a creep being operated by only one person. I can’t help but imagine there must be plenty of times every day (on all rr’s) that 2 people are needed for something out of the ordinary. I am all in favor of progress, but let’s do it in inches, not yards. Do we have any safety statistics about 5 vs 2 vs 1?

59

Ah, yes. Word gets to someone in higher management that the UPS train was delayed because the engineer had a broken knuckle–and he responds, “Why didn’t he come on in, and we would have seen to it that he saw a doctor.”

60

Ed,
You left out that the broken knuckle was on the other side of the bridge over a raging river and the bridge has no walkway.

It is best that I do not reply to some of the moronic statements made here!