GP30s in passenger service?

Model Railroader Prototype information for the modeler
1

I realise that the gears may have been wrong… but… before I go and get some P2K GP7s and mess about lowering the short hood I wondered whether any RR/transit authorities ever used GP30s for passenger/commute services - or if there was a reason that they didn’t/wouldn’t have done? (I have some P2K GP30s obtained cheap as a batch/closeout… really nice locos)

Then again… if I shorten the nose on P2K GP7s can I retain the working door / how would I do the centre window? Any ideas please?

TIA

[:P]

2

Dave, as far as I know, only Union Pacific had GP30s with steam generators-and they were only some of the GP30Bs that they had purchased. I have seen old pics of GP30 ABBA sets on some of the UP’s mid-60s passenger trains. Other than that, I don’t know of any specific passenger use for this model. There would be nothing to prevent, for example, on a modern-themed layout, a GP30 rebuild to be equipped with HEP for either commuter or other passenger use. Hope this helps some. . .

3

Thanks Rick
I should have noted that I’m looking at the 80s…
What would HEP look like? A Box added on? An exhaust stack protruding from the long hood? Where?
Wouldn’t 80s passenger cars have their own power?

You also make me wonder whether the GP7s that went into passenger service had HEP??? If so, how could this be identified?

Thanks again

4

I know that the C&NW replaced their steam generators with diesel sets in the late 1950s. I think those were fitted into the boxes added to their GP7s. Amtrak’s F40s and SDP40Fs had HEP sets from new…but until the Amfleet cars started coming and the older steam-heat cars were rebuilt…they had to run with some sort of power car. Most F40s supplied power from their prime movers. Some, like the F40-2Cs were longer…to contain a second diesel, a Cummins, for HEP.

5

The Reading/SEPTA (Southeastern Pennsylvania Transit Authority) ran its Philadelphia to Reading “Push-Pull” with an FP7 on both ends. While one of the FP7’s was being rebuilt, they substituted a GP30. The train had a FP7 on the east end and GP30 on the east end with 5 cars in between.

By the time GP30’s came on the scene, passenger service had declined such that the railroads had more than enough passenger units to cover the declining business. The substitution above was in the late 70’s or early 80’s when by then passenger service was under Amtrak and the commuter lines were under commuter authorities with limited surviving passenger engines.

Dave H.

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To add to that most railroads with any sense got rid of old passenger equipment asap so it couldn;t be dumped back on them at some point.

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I might be missing something obvious, but I don’t get the part about “lowering the short hood”?? [D)]

Many 1950’s-60’s railroads used high-nose GP’s in passenger service. I believe having a steam generator in the high short hood was a factory option from EMD. I know Soo Line (and C&NW?) had “torpedo tube” GP’s used for passenger service, I saw the Soo ones a lot in the eighties when they were being used on way freights. I believe Boston and Maine had some passenger GP’s too…and DM&IR 129 and 130 were steam generator equipped high nose SD-9’s!!

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Sorry… I’ve been looking at CNW GP7s in passenger service modified with low short hoods and forgot to explain.

In fact I’ve landed some phase III GP9s instead of the GP7s because the GP7s were a mix of early types… so now I’m looking at GP9s and I notice that (1) CN are still running them with low short hoods… and (2) the cab front appears to be wedge shaped like Alco C420 cabs (or at least similar to them). IIRC the CNW GP7 modification had a single flat middle cab front window.

I’ve noticed the torpedoes on both GP7s and 9s… does anyone know of a pic of how these were plumbed in please? Also did they always get fitted where a longer range/higher capacity tank was fitted? Does anyone make a modifictaion for the P2K locos please?

Thanks for the answers so far [8D]

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Why not just tote an F or E series B unit with a steam generator behind your locomotives? IIRC the D&RGW did just that with their Ski Train. I could be wrong though.

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[8D] That would work for a train travelling some distance. Hauling all that weight (assuming the B unit was DIT) would seem an expensive way of getting HEP. Then again… it gives me a logic for hauling an Amtrak E9B (P2K) between something other than the E9A.

Sorry to wander… passenger service/consists are a mistery to me. [%-)][sigh] I have several impressions…

  1. “HEP” - steam heat and some electricity - originally came from the steam locos…? Right?
  2. Early Passenger diesels had a steam boiler - usually in the High Nose (GP18s for example [um? They may be 2nd generation?]
  3. SDPs (like the Kato SDP35) had an extended frame and long hood with HEP at the far end of the long hood? …Right?
  4. HEP stopped being HEP and became power on each car… when? where? ATSF cars that became Superliners (or their forebears)?
  5. What happened about ordinary profile cars like the 52 seaters I was asking about? Did/do they still require HEP?
  6. What happens about Private cars converted from Heavyweights and such things?
  7. Somewhat differently - when did Horizon cars and specifically the cab cars come into service please? Would they need HEP?

Thanks for the great answers so far. [bow]

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Adding a steam generator car behind a freight locomotive was not an uncommon practice. The s/g cars on D&RGW were rebuilt from steam locomotive tenders and de-engined PB1’s. CN had a sizable fleet of purpose-built s/g cars for branchline and secondary runs. CN also had GP9’s without s/g’s but with high-speed gearing for passenger duty. ATSF had some s/g cars rebuilt from lightweight baggage cars to go with the F45’s that were assigned to the passenger just prior to Amtrak. I do remember an FP45/F45/F45 consist with an s/g car pulling the Super Chief/El Capitan in 1969 or 1970.

Another option would be the way that LIRR ran its push-pulls in the 1970’s-1980’s. They had a conventional freight locomotive (GP38-2 or MP15AC) at the outer end and de-motored FA1’s or F7A’s at the other end equipped with HEP sets and a control cab.

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Where did they dump them to please? Scrap? Amtrak? Rebuilds? Trade-ins? I assume that the place they didn’t want them back from was Amtrak???

[:)] Thanks

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Now I’ve stumbled on this…

http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/247-213

??? Any information or pics please???

TIA

[8D]

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The freight unit should have more than enough power to pull the train since you probably won’t be going that fast (50-60 mph) with a fairly small train (less than 10 cars).

HEP is electrical power to power electrical air conditioning, heating, lighting, etc.

In steam engine days the steam engine provided steam for heating and sometimes cooling, but the electricity was provided by axle powered gnerators and batteries. HEP cars and steam cars are not intechangeable.

Depends on how you define early. Carbody units (F7, FP7, E units) had the steam generators in the rear of the car body. Hood units (GP, RS units) had the steam generators in a high short (nose) hood. Later hood units (U30CG, FP45, SDP40) had the steam generator in the long hood, either the very end or between the cab and the engine.

Almost. The did not have HEP, they had a steam generator which was in the rear of the long hood.

HEP is still used. The engines on Amtrak locomotives run at a constant speed to provide constant HEP (its taken off the main generator). Modern cars derive their power from the engine, old cars are self powered, except that railroad business cars are often equipped with a gene

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Most passenger cars were scrapped, the better ones were picked up by Amtrak. Some were converted to M/W service, seeing lightweights (especially stainless steel cars) on a work train took some getting used to after seeing old heavyweights in this duty.

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Those few railroads buying new passenger engines in the sixties tended to buy engines that could be used in freight service too, like SDP’s. The legislation creating Amtrak decreed that all passenger equipment being used by the railroads as of such-and-such a date became the property of Amtrak. So…a little before that date, the railroads removed their newer engines and reclassified them as freight engines, and put their oldest most dilapidated engines (like 25 year old E units) on their passenger trains, so the old junk went to Amtrak and they could keep their newer stuff.

17

I hope these help with the Torpedo Tube GPs. Had one come in to Horicon for paint a while ago. Steam gen long gone, but most of the rest of the stuff was there. Ex-NP unit, but most should be similar.

The tank between the trucks is actually three separate tanks. Two visible from the outside, and one hidden down the middle.

These bigger tanks forced the air reservoirs to the roof.

Here are the best shots of the rooftop piping I could get.

Unit still had high short nose. Lots of room in there now.

The steam generator would have been in there.

CNW had some goofy shaft-driven generator on the long hood end, for lighting their commuter cars. Bumped out the end of the long hood to a square, instead of the 45 degree angle of most GP ends. CNW later rebuilt some F7s with Cummins HEP generators in a the back, where the steam gen would have been. IRM has one, repainted in Horicon. http://www.irm.org/gallery/CNW411

Amtrak qualified cars have an onboard generator, as well as HEP hookups. When HEP is connected, either from an engine or shore power, a switch automatically shuts off the generator. When power is removed, the generator starts back up.

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CNJ and B&M also had GP7/GP9’s with the lighting generator on the end of the long hood for suburban service. Only the lower half of the hood end was squared out. Most Chicago suburban operators put diesel-alternator sets for HEP in the s/g space of some of their E’s and F’s for suburban trains. RI initially did this with E6A 630, F7A’s 675-677 and AB6’s 750-751.

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this isn’t about GP30s though but…

CPRail had some passenger-equiped GP9s that had steam generators, roof-mounted airtanks and an enlarged fuel tank. these units (8500-8529) were used in regular passenger service until either VIA Rail took over passenger services or until the GP9 rebuild program in 1984ish along with countless others that were rebuilt. the rebuilds were basically remanufactured and rebuilt with low short hoods for increased visibility. there was this one special unit (8530) that had the lower half of the long hood end squared off for a sand tank. this was before the GP9 rebuild program.

i also heard of AND saw some steam generator cars near the Braid Skytrain station (Vancouver, BC). one was painted in a blue livery with the second car painted green with a similar setup. i don’t know anything about these. feedback would be nice.

i have also seen from photos that CPRail had and SD40-2/F7B/SD40-2 setup, probably for extra power. there were also two specific units (6800-6801) that were actually designated for hump service and later converted to slugs 1018-1019 (extra traction car, NOT a bug). eventually, these were sold off to NRE. the cars even had “Hump Service Only” under the logo.

as for GP30s, CPRail had two, the only so units built in Canada (5000-5001). these were used in freight service only. consider all that bodywork on top. not alot of room for roof-mounted airtanks.

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Thanks again all [:P]

The next thing that I don’t understand is why commuter locos want larger fuel tanks and the air cylinders moved to the roof. Okay, the big tanks force the move but for “short” run traffic why go to the expense? Why not just fill up more often?

I now have three and a half GP9s (any one that knows about repairing a P2K GP9 drive train please go to… http://www.trains.com/TRC/CS/forums/1136926/ShowPost.aspx#1136926 ). Depending on insanity I may (a) lower the short hood (b) change the fuel tanks and air cylinders and (c) provide HEP cabinets on the end of the long hood. until I get round to that I’m thinking of “converting” a couple of short RPOs to HEP?Baggage unles I can find a suitable 4 axle covered wagon dummy to double as HEP and cab unit.

A weird alternative would be to use an E9B (with HEP) mid train with cab cars at both ends. I don’t think that anyone actually did I but I don’t see why they shouldn’t.

Somewhat later (historically) when did Amtrak convert their F40PHs to cabbages? Did anyone do this before them?

Thanks for all the help.