Hello all around.
I have some questions concerning Great Northern steam power. Hope that somebody can help - most likely GN-RICK is the most knowledgeable GN modeller, hope to get an answer from him, too.
1: -did GN sometimes use white running board edges and wheel tires on glacier park painted O-8 class 2-8-2s? I have a very nice H0scale brass Oriental/ Samhongsa O-8, #3378, open cab, early version, glacier park. It has white running board edges and unpainted wheel tires. I hate unpainted wheel tires and want to paint them, but need info.
2: -did GN sometimes use black cab roofs on glacier park painted N-3 class 2-8-8-0s? I want to paint a Tenshodo N-3 in glacier park scheme, but read that the freight engines did not have had the red cab roof. Is that correct? Or is both black and red correct?
3: -did GN sometimes run a black closed cab R-2 class 2-8-8-2 without its tender vestibule? And if so, did it then have had a hinged cab deck apron? I plan to buy an unpainted Tenshodo R-2 which I intend to superdetail. All of those Tenshodo R-2s were delivered without tender vestibule - so I have to know if I have to scratchbuild one.
OK. In order, 1. I have not seen any evidence of white driver tires or running
board edges on any O-8 class. Driver tires on GN equipment was most often
black, which s what I did on both of my Sunset O-8s (and other locomotives
as well).
2. As for cab roofs, either oxide red or black is correct. Often the cab roof on
GN steam is flat in appearance-most likely due to soot deposits. It is also
possible that a red-painted cab roof might appear black due to the effects
of weathering.
3. You’ll notice that the Tenshodo R-2s also were delivered sans the cab doors
as well. (I know-I have two.) As for the tender walk-through, I believe that
those locomotives that were vestibule equipped had them. I’ve looked into
this situation a bit myself over the years. At one time, Precision Scale
catalogued a beautiful vestibule cab-tender walk-through complete with
springs and striker plate. Unfortunately, I was never able to obtain one, so
I cannot say whether they even exist-or ever did.
The only GN locomotives IN SERVICE that I have ever seen with white driver tires
were a pair of S-2s, the 2587 and 2588-for a time in their Montana service.
many Thanks for your detailed answers. The N-3 is the one I want to weather heavily after painting.
Today I have the latest Key/ Samhongsa R-2 glacier park, but not a Tenshodo. But yes - at photos I saw that they also were delivered without doors - should be not hard to add. The question with the vestibules was more important. I also have the PSC parts catalogue and did find the complete vestibules, but they are of other prototypes like WM M-2 and DM&IR. The question is if the large center cutout of these coresponds to the Tenshodo tender - that’s why I thought of scratchbuilding. For that I can look to the Tenshodo last run O-8 or to the Key R-2.
Thanks again from
Rick,
two more questions:
1: -do you know if the Z-6, R-2, N-3 and O-8 OCCASIONALLY hauled passenger trains? I ask because I also plan to purchase a HW Oriental Limited or Empire Builder.
2: -somewhere I read that GN did start to use LW cars not before 1947, but did the above mentioned consists run also after the introduction of the LW Empire Builder?
As Ragnar stated, N-3s were occasionally used to power troop trains.
Unlikely that they would have seen service on other passenger trains.
The Z-6 class Challengers never strayed out of SP&S/Oregon Trunk/
Inside Gateway service-so their use on a passenger trains is virtually
impossible. They were only purchased by the GN to equalize mileage
vis-a-vis the NP in SP&S service anyway. It is possible, though unlikely,
that O-8s would have appeared regularly in passenger service either.
Their occasional use on troop trains is documented, but little else. As for
the R-2 class-very unlikely. These locomotives were usually under speed
restrictions in service-usually 35-45 MPH.
The GN did not own any lightweight streamlined cars before the 1947
Empire Builder. Some of the heavyweight coaches in service on the
old Builder were rebuilt to a semi-streamlined appearance, but remained
heavyweights nevertheless. These became known as the “Luxury Coaches”.
On the GN, they later were referred to as “stream-styled” cars, but they
retained their 6-wheel trucks and were still riveted construction. Heavy-
weight consists did continue after 1947. The GN brought back the
Oriental Limited for the years from 1947 to 1951 operating the Builder’s
old heavyweight consist. Thsi was replaced in 1951 by the new secondary
streamliner the “Western Star”. Other short-haul trains continued to use
heavyweight cars for several years: the Cascadian, the Gopher/Badger,
and the Winnipeg Limited are examples. As passenger service declined
in the 60s, the heavyweight cars were withdrawn from service and replaced
with surplus streamlined equipment.
Hope this helps.
yes, I am running the Key R-2 with the vestibule - even only with the shortest coupling distance. I have no problem doing so - but there is a requirement for that: -my smallest (and up to date only) curve is 80inches radius/ 160inches diameter (with the corresponding turnouts) because I do not want to accept any compromise in curve radii. But I tested the Key R-2 on smaller curves, too - also without any operating problem. The tender vestibule on my model is able to move laterally somewhat which it does on curves. And with the longer coupling distance - even with that the vestibule still touches the cab wall making for a “gapless” appearance - you shouldn’t have any problem on curves perhaps down to 24inches.
Yes exactly - that area is flat and even - maybe somewhat too small in all - but otherwise great for mrring!
Fun aside (not completely - mrring should be no less than fun) - I am also not on a retired airport nearby because of the distance which is between my home and the place of death of the great Hindenburg - and very likely between us. But here in Germany I have at home a room of perhaps 700 squarefeet which is otherwise unused - but I still have no layout, I plan to found a club sometime within the next years. I am a “carpet-rrer” (although the floor actually is parquet), and because of that I use the now discontinued ROCO-LINE track with that ugly but noise killing rubber roadbed - and of course ROCO-LINE is the only track system offering that large radius as stock item - on a layout of course I would use flex. It may be that on US prototypes even on mainlines were used much tighter curves - but I am running also some European brass steamers and the PRR S-1 6-4-4-6 with a simple scratchbuilt operating diaphragm wich requires very large curves (as did its prototype). Two or three times a year I use that room for some great action. Next thing to the decision for these curves is that I also want to run prototypically long trains - but not with two or more engines. So because of these curves I removed all extra weights off all of my cars (all are the high-end kits or rtr from Interm., Red Cab., P2000, Atlas, Westerfield, F&C, Sunshine etc., with some brass exceptions) - so now it was no longer a dream to run 100+car trains with only one brass steamer! I think this is mrring as close to the prototype as it can get up to date. I am one of the rare US-related German mrrers, and I would say that I promote that topic here - and what better method than with wide curves, detailed brass engines and resear
Guten Tag, Johannes,
I shall go out on something of a limb and say that the black-roofed version
would be the later one. One thing to note-the '47 to '51 Oriental Limited
was using mostly heavyweight cars that had just been removed from Empire
Builder service-so those would be the cars you would look for-rather than
OL-specific cars, that would probably be from the 20s. I cannot speak with
any authority on which versions Challenger Imports did-they are priced way
out of my range.
I model SP&S and so have a few of the appropriate heavyweight GN Challenger cars. My Builder cars came painted all Pullman green, including trucks and underbody. In the Oriental Limited scheme, they are painted Pullman green with black roofs, trucks and underbodies.
I believe, without any real proof, that Challenger only brought in cars painted in one scheme for each train.
Up to date almost any brass equipment is priced far away of my range, the Tenshodo R-2 and the Challenger HW train are plans for future - I do not know when I will be in a situation to buy them.
And yes - it may be that Challenger offered only one scheme for each train - I didn’t look to the names when I saw the cars. But I would prefer the green and black version which matches the later years.
I want to thank all of you for your great help.
All luck to you.
Being as Challenger Imports has left the brass business, it may become
a very large er-challenge to find the trainset you are looking for. Best of
luck on that-Callenger stuff is currently bringing premium prices.