The Ground Posts on a Z transformer go to the outside rail and the Power Posts go to the center rail, Correct?? In other words the U posts go to the outside rail and the 1,2,3,4 or A,B,C,D posts go to the center rail, correct?? Because I got an email from Lionel saying that the top set of terminals is for ground on a Z transformer. And that the bottom set is for power. Thanks.
Indeed, the top set of terminals on a Z transformer are common. Check here for more discussion on this.
Rob
None of the terminals on a Z are actually grounded unless you ground them. Lionel used the term “ground” loosely in that e-mail instead of the strictly correct word “common”. So the upper terminals are the common terminals and the ones that should connect to your outside rails. Because they are common, they are all equivalent; so you can use any or all of them for any or all outside-rail connections, whatever is convenient.
Ok, got it. The top terminals go to the outside rail. And the bottom terminals go to the center rail. I think I might have done it right the entire time. Now, all is the same when wiring up with the 167 whistle/direction controller?? Wires up the same way, just have to wire in the 167. I have a manual for my 167’s so I will go by what that says, but I do not reverse the common and power wires, correct?? I should keep them the same. thanks.
Yes.
Once you have determined which posts are “power” and which are “common” your wiring scheme should be consistent throughout your layout or you face the clear and present danger of creating a “short circuit.” *
Why would you assume otherwise? It’s one thing to be cautious around electricity; it’s quite another to repeatedly refuse to take “yes” for an answer.
You are credited with 845 posts on this forum, which suggests an ongoing interest in toy trains. If so, you need to spring $20 bucks or so at Sears or Radio Shack and purchase an inexpensive multimeter. If you already have one, by all means use it. If you are uncertain as to how, read its instructionas and then post questions on the forum, because you reallly need to know the basics – how and why to test for continuity, if nothing else.
Someone may say that you don’t need a meter, you can do many tests with less; but to me this is like saying you don’t need a pick-and-shovel to dig a hole. That’s true – you could dig with your bare hands – but why do it the hard way?
Despite its long history, the terminology stinks; and although the technology is prettry consistent, the terms used to describe it are not. “Power” and “common” are as good (bad) as any. I keep them straight on the layout by using red wires for power, black for common, and green for the rare true earth-ground. You are certainly free to adopt your own color scheme; but o
Ok, got it. Most of my questions are about standard gauge lionel trains and no one seems to know much about standard gauge lionel. Maybe except for a few people on here that help me out every so often. And I really appreciate everyone’s help. My hobby shop close to me, does not know much about standard gauge, therefore I ask questions on here. I am sure Lionelsoni can help me with my 392E matter. As he knows a lot about standard gauge. And there is just no info online that tells you how to fix things. I just have to assumer everyone on here knows their stuff. I wish I could know more, but the only way to know is to do myself with some help from others. I am now good with the Z situation. Now, the 392E is the next task I have to tackle. Its on a post on here as well. But, people just seem to view it and not add a tread. oh well. I am trying to get this loco up and running again for my layout because the kids love to see my standard gauge steam locomotives in action. This hobby is all for the kids, and without my 392E on the layout, I am limited to what I can use. Thanks.
Bob,
Could you explain the difference between ground and common? Thanks.
Does your 392E have a E unit like those used on post war engines? With a rotating drum? If it does, and it is not working well, the first thing I would do is spray it with WD-40 and see if that frees it up. I have done this to a few E units and always had good results. If someone has oiled it in the past, and the oil has gotten gummy, this will probably wash out the gummy oil and fee up the unit. Also, WD-40 is a very good contact cleaner, IMHO much better than stuff that is sold as contact cleaner. I have nearly 40 years experience using WD-40 and CRC-336 as contact cleaners. WD-40 will disolve corrosion on contacta which other contact cleaners won’t do. Over the years I have tried other things for cleaning contacts and nothing works like WD-40.
I recommend that you do not disassemble the E unit unless it is absolutely necessary. If the drum is damaged, or the contact fingers are worn out, you may need to rebuild the unit. However, E units are easily damaged, so disassembly may result in more problems. I have never had a problem with an E unit that WD-40 wouldn’t fix.
Bruce Baker
Pops,
Ground is just what it means, a wire that is generally hooked up to a ground source; example an eight foot copper rod driven into the ground, or a copper water pipe in the ground, will give you a good ground source. The word ground is commonly mis-used, especially in automotive work where they say to ground your speakers which means to pick-up the negative from the frame(metal) of the vehicle.
Neutral or common is the return wire mainly on a 120 or lower volt A.C. circuit. A higher voltage circuit like 240 volts or 277 volts will usually have two or three hot wires and a ground.
Lee F.
Actually, as a special case, the frame of a vehicle (even an airplane or space vehicle) is considered to be a ground. The symbol for a ground is a triangular arrangement of short (usually) horizontal lines:
A common, short for “common return”, is simply a node that is literally common to a number of circuits. There can be more than one common in a system. For example, you might have the outside rails and the U terminals of a ZW transformer as one common, which you might call the “layout common”. Then you might have a color-light signal with two or three lamps and a common connection to them that you might have connected to an accessory voltage supply. And somewhere you might have a single-pole-double-throw switch with a common terminal that is shared between the normally-open contact and the normally-closed contact. The symbol for a common is an open triangle, with some marking inside it as needed to indicate which of several commons it might be in a system:
A neutral is a special kind of common in which the r
Great explanation, Bob. It’s great to have someone so well grounded in electrical stuff to help us out here! I’ve tried to follow your advice as best I can on my layout and, so far, things are running great.
Charlie
“Well grounded” indeed! My pleasure.
Hello Lionelsoni, Could you give me some help with my problem with my 392E?? It is on another post and it seems that no one was able to help me out, thought maybe you could help. Thanks.
Thanks, Lee and Bob.
Just like to point out that confusingly, the terminals labled U on a ZW or KW and similarly marked on an RW , 1033, etc do not directly correspond. I believe Lionels installation diagrams show U hooked to the outside running rails, and the opposite with an RW or 1033. I don’t really recall the scheme for LW or Tw, etc, and most of the time, it is not a problem, but it can be in a situation where two transformers are phased together an in use on one layout, and you choose to use a fixed voltage terminal on the RW as a climbing or descending voltage on a grade. This may be to far afield for this discussion, suffice it to say you will need to connect the Uon the ZW to A or B on the RW or 1033 to acheive the result you want. I am sure Bob Nelson can elaborate more on this.
stuartmit,
Yes, I’ve noticed that. I have a TW, LW, 1033 and 1044. And on all of them the U-A posts are the opposite of the ZW, KW, etc. Caused me quite a bit of confusion.
You are correct about the 1033, at least. I have one with original instructions from my youth and a ZW with original instructions as well. The ‘U’ posts are reversed I have both transformers hooked up to the layout & they work great when wired per Lionel instructions & lionelsoni’s suggestions regarding wire gauge, etc.
But, as mentioned earlier, it’s easy enough to figure out the common on a transformer by following the ideas in this thread.
It is amazing how much electrical knowledge I have been able to pick up from guys on this forum. Thanks
Charlie.
If anyone is interested in looking at “source material” on this subject, try the link below. You would be well advised to read the entire document – six pages, and THEN go to the particular postwar transformer that you are interested in. Not all old Lionel transformers are listed, but most are.
The most important section is the chart at the bottom of the last page. It clearly shows what combinations of posts Lionel intended you to use. In many cases, the operator is asked to select what post he wants to use for “common” and it isn’t always “U” . (It generally is the “U” post with late pre- and post-war transformers with two or more throttles, such as the Types V, Z, VW, ZW, KW, etc; but for many of the old transformers that had only one throttle, such as the 1033,1044, Type Q, etc., there are numerous options for the “common” post – based on what you want the rest of the posts to do.)
The simplest rule I can come up with is this: You may have to read a little in order to decide which post on your transformer you want to use as the “common” in a given situation; but whatever you select should be connected to the OUTSIDE rails. Study the chart and see whether you agree.
Note: Lionel uses the terms “ground,” “common,” and “common ground” more-or-less interchangeably. These terms refer mostly to the circuitry that occurs completely “downstream” from the primary coil of the transformer; that is, the secondary coil and the wires to the track/accessories on the layout. They are generally not talking about any “true earth-ground” * involving cold-water pipes or metal poles driven into the ground. Lionelsoni may pick a nit here, but what the typical operato
The general rule seems to be that U is common when the transformer has more than one variable output, and that U is not a natural common otherwise.
I advise against using a fixed voltage, or any adjustable voltage for that matter, to adjust train speed on a grade. Unlike the usual wiring of consecutive blocks to separately controlled voltages, where the operator at least intends to use the same voltage on both sides of the block gap, the grade wiring always presents the train with different voltages.
A good argument to use the Trainmaster CAB-1 / PowerMaster combination (TMCC Conventional).
The control triacs don’t care if they are “back-fed” from an adjacent block set to a higher voltage. Bridging the block with pickups/rollers or a passenger cars does create a load, still(on the PM-1 set to the higher voltage), but not a short to the other PM-1.
Rob