Help with this Lionel locomotive set please.

Classic Toy Trains Forum
1

Hi,

My name is Ricky, and I frequent the Model Railroader forums, and occasionally the Trains forums. This is my first post here.

A friend gave me an Lionel O-gauge set, that included oval of track, two Lionel Alco PA locomotives, one powered, one not, in Amtrak paint, and passenger cars.

Included is a photo of the locomotives.

It also included a power pack and transformer/throttle.

Unfortunately, they gave it to me as it was not functioning when they got it used from another individual. (They had got it for their boys, but when it wouldn’t run, they said I could have it, to display with my trains.)

The power pack does supply power, but no lights, motor or sounds from the locomotives. (They do both have onboard sound, as I have popped the shells off to check wiring, and was surprised by a speaker inside each unit, the wiring appears intact, as best as I can tell. No obvious broken parts or wires inside, motor contacts appear intact as well on the powered units trucks.)

Before opening the locomotives, I had cleaned all tracks and wheels, when nothing worked, I checked to see if there was any power from the controller, and there was, but maybe wrong voltage?

With the onboard sound, must there be a special controller? What voltage would they need to run? Or do I need to look elsewhere for the problem?

I would really like to get these to run, if possible, so as to give them to said friends boys, who are now 9&7, for them to enjoy. I just am a little lost when it comes to O gauge equipment, big difference from my HO scale ones! Anything I am missing?

2

Please post any numbers that are on the locomotive, cars, and transformer.

3

I can’t find any on the locomotives themselves, other than the city, state, zip code underneath.

Where would the model numbers be found on them?

EDIT: Inside, stamped on the back of the unit, under the shell, is:

10-8934-T-065A if that help.

4

Did you see any circuit boards when you popped the shell off the powered locomotive? There may be a blown one causing the issue.

Standard procedure for O gauge manufacturers now is to use DC motors and to run the incoming AC voltage from the transformer through an inverter board. Circuit boards (for sound or otherwise) need DC voltage as well, at least the ones I know of.

As an experiment, you could try running two leads from one of your HO transformers (which I assume are DC) to one of the motors in the locomotive and see if it runs.

If it’s a board issue you’ll have to visit a Lionel service center to see if they can fix it.

Good luck!

5

Number boards on the front of the locomotive, reporting marks and numbers on the sides of the cars, nameplate on the transformer.

On toy trains, the reporting marks are traditionally also the part numbers, although in recent years this has been changing. But, in any case, those markings can often confirm a guess at the actual part number.

6

I just went into one of my Lionel books and it looks like that ALCO FA Amtrak locomotive numbered 8936 dates to 1995 thru 1997, so that (I think) definately puts it into the circuit board era.

Don’t know about the production date of the set, the book doesn’t show sets.

One last thing, do the passenger cars light up? That would certainly show you’re getting juice to the track.

7

1995 Lionel catalog: “6-11748 Amtrak passenger car set.” 1996 Lionel catalog lists it as “Amtrak Alco passenger set.” Both show 8936 FA, 16095 “New Smyrna” combine, 16096 “Silver dome” vista dome and 16097 “Lake Worth” observation. The 6-18937 (8937 on side of loco) dummy FA-2 was s eparate sale item as were the 6-15107 “Prairie view” full dome, 6-15100 “Danbury” coach, 6-16098 “Temple” coach and 6-16099 “High dome” vista dome cars.

Set came with 27" by 63" oval of O-27 track (8 curved and 8 straight), “easy-to-use controller with a powerful UL-listed 3-amp. 40-watt transformer, hook-up wire and lockon.” $199.95 in 1995 and $219.95 in 1996. I wouldn’t stake my life on it, but as far as I know sets of that era all came with AC transformers so there should be a rectifier in the locomotive to convert the AC track power for the DC motor installed in the locomotive.

A few 3 rail basics, they may give you some ideas: power is supplied to track by lockon or track clip. The arrangement of the wires isn’t terribly critical but I try to have the center rail be the “hot” or positive rail and the outer rails (linked electrically by the metal crossties) as the negative or common (often labelled as “U” on transformers).

The locomotive and/or lighted cars pick up their power through a roller or sliding shoe that rides the center rail and return it via the axles and wheels. If the roller(s) are dirty, missing or out of alignment this can inhibit or impair the operation of the train. If the cars or the dummy FA light when placed on the track by themselves a misaligned loco roller

8

I have that same exact set. Dates back to the 90s. One thing I noticed in your post. You state that each unit has a speaker. Only the B unit / dummy unit has a speaker. The powered A unit does not come with a speaker. You might have two B / dummy units. Have you checked the truck on them to see if they indeed have a motor? The powered A unit has dual motors. One on each truck. The B unit has no motors. There will be pick up rollers on the bottom regardless, as the B /dummy units light up and does supply the diesel horn sound. Powered A unit definitely did not come with a speaker.

9

One does have two motors, one each truck, one truck motor facing one way, one truck motor facing the other, or one truck with gears on left side, one with gears on the right side, the other locomotive no motors. (I assume the motors were built that way?)

I only opened the one, as it had a “rattle” piece, a connector was loose, so I reconnected it, and when I opened it I noticed the circuit board and the speaker. Both the powered and the unpowered units have a mini slide switch under the rear truck, says on/off, I assume was for sound? I will have to open the powered unit to double check it… (Could be, as it was used, and I have zero info on history, that something was changed in the set? More on that later in the post)

I did try my HO power pack, with DC, as I had read that Lionel could use either AC or DC power, in another post on here, but still got nothing for response. (I did some research when the supplied transformer wouldn’t work. I assumed the transformer was bad, and so looked around, and seen that most circuit board style units could use DC power as well, and having seen the circuit board, figured I could try it, and if it worked, just let my friend know they needed a new power supply. When it still gave no sign of getting power, I figured I best start asking some questions on here.)

No lights or sound or movement from either locomotive, (the cars are in rougher shape so I haven’t tested them, broken coupler knuckles on two, missing truck king pin screw on one, loose axle on another, but I know I can fix these issues easily. That kind of thing transfers over, just bigger or smaller in size depending on scale/gauge.) with either power supply, but I am sure that the DC pack works, as that is the one I use to test run used HO locomotives before I add DCC decoders, or when troubleshooting an issue on my workbench.

The friend who had got them, figured that one toy train is like another, so I should know how to do this… I love how that happe

10

Becky,

Thanks for the explanation of the power lock on, I was unsure of which wire went where, so I tried it one wire to center, one to outside rail, the switched them around when no power signs.

My normal models are HO scale, two rail. So, knowing some basics of three rail is helpful. Glad to know that so long as one is center rail, one outer, it should work, so nothing that I did wrong during testing.

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When you do the passenger car test, put one at a time on the track. If none light up, then either the lights are burned out or you have no power to the track (your voltmeter can check the track, center rail to one outside rail.)

NOTE–Always check the track voltage with the car or engine being tested on the track. Loading the system can help find bad track joints, which are another possible reason an engine won’t run. (I don’t think that is your problem.)

If the passenger cars light up, you can concentrate on the powered locomotive.

Thank you Becky for part numbers allowing finding manuals for this set.

You can download the manual for your Amstrak Set. It shows how to hook up the power supply.

https://www.lionelsupport.com/media/servicedocuments/71-1748-250.pdf

Supplement to the repair manuals shows the dummy unit.

https://www.lionelsupport.com/media/supplements/Supplement27/27Complete.pdf

Here is instruction manual for powered unit (shows it has a speaker :slight_smile: )

https://www.lionelsupport.com/media/servicedocuments/71-8994-250.pdf

If nothing lights up, it is possible that someone connected the track to a wall outlet. I have heard of that happening. Burns the bulbs out in a flash.

My wife confessed she once put power cords on a set of speakers. First one she plugged in was really loud for a moment, then silence. Must have been a bad speaker, so she tried the other. People make mistakes.

12

The Powered unit didn’t come with a speaker. Only the B unit had a horn.

The manual above is not for the engine we are talking about.

The switch on the powered unit is to lock the reverse unit.

The switch on the B unit shuts off the horn…

13

Yard sale find? Considering the condition you say they’re in, who was the previous owner, Gomez Addams?

14

OK. Thank you for the information Michael, I’ll make a note, “No sound card or speaker in Amtrak Set Alco.” Did the Amtrak Set Alco have a 6- number so that I might look up the correct manual for Ricky?

15

The U terminal on Lionel transformers is sometimes the common terminal and meant to be connected to the outside rails, and sometimes U is not the common and is meant to be connected to the center rail. Among postwar transformers meant for controling multiple trains, U us usually the common. Among postwar transformers meant for controlling one train, U is usually not the common.

Transformers put out alternating voltage, so both sides of a circuit are alternately positive and negative.

16

The Powered unit is 6-18936

The Dummy unit is 6-18937

17

Thank you again Michael.

6-18936 - Amtrak Alco FA Power A #8936

Amtrak Alco FA - Pictorial Diagram - 199571-8936-252Pictorial Diagram

https://www.lionelsupport.com/media/servicedocuments/30610-8936-001.pdf

The wiring diagram for Electronic E-Unit 600-103-001 is found in Supplement 21.

Several inexpensive locomotives use the 600-103-001, one of the RS-3 locomotives being one of them. When you are looking for the 8963 Amtrak FA Power unit wiring diagram, you are directed to this diagram. The diagram shows a Horn Circuit Board. If you do not have a horn circuit, as several have said, just ignore it in the diagram.

Using the wiring diagram as a guide you can do things like check for continuity between the rollers and W2 on 600-0103-001. You can tell which wire nuts to remove so you can try runing the motors with your HO DC power supply. Hopefully you will find a broken wire and have it running in no time.

Regarding image size: you can click on it and if Photobucket is workinig at the time, a larger image will appear. Or you can right click and copy from this site, paste into a photo editing application and it will appear larger.

18

Your welcome.

I was gonna post that from the lionel website, but couldn’t get the link to copy.

19

Thanks all.

I will play around with them some more tomorrow afternoon, as I have the afternoon off. (Sorry I have been silent the past two days, but working retail makes for busy weekends.)

I will update then.

I appreciate all the help given so far, been very informative.

THANK YOU!

20

Not Gomez, I don’t think. My friend said they found it at a sale with lots of kids toys and clothing, so most likely something they bought for the little ones to play with, and it lost it’s “fun value” when it either quit working, or was damaged making it quit. (At least that is the assumption I can come up with… Of course, they may have played with them like Gomez did… Which would rightly be a hanging offense in some households.)

The only thing I will need outside parts for, other than maybe the locomotives and/or power supply, will be the coupler knuckles… My spares are all too small! [:-^] [:D]