History behind the Lionel NYC Flyer 4-4-2 steam locomotive

Classic Toy Trains Forum
1

I recently purchased a Lionel New York Central (NYC) Flyer train set which contains a 4-4-2 steam locomotive bearing the number 8670. I contacted Lionel to inquire about the history of the locomotive and they said they are in the business of making toys not history - a rather strange response.

So, can anyone point me in the direction of where to look up the history of this particular locomotive? I am particularly interested in identifying who the manufacturer was, what year it was built, where it was used on the NYC system and even when it was scrapped. It is my understanding that these numbers on the locomotives identified a unique and thus traceable identification for each engine. I tried the internet and came up blank trying to trace the 8670 number. I was able to find two potential manufacturers of the 4-4-2 locomotives (Baldwin and ALCO). Since I live in the Albany/Schenectady region it would be nice to know if this particular train was modeled after a locally produced engine!

Can anyone point me in a direction on this?

2

I don’t think those starter set 4-4-2s are based on any one specific prototype. I know that the tooling for these engines is based on Lionel’s postwar Scout engines. As far as I know, those Scouts were just toy trains and not based on a real world locomotive.

That being said, I really like these little engines. They are one of the few things left in the Lionel line that still have that Lionel “feel” to them. They look like a Lionel, not an overgrown HO scale model. [;)]

3

Yeah, I hate to say it but the person from Lionel is right. These starter set locos are really toy models. Wouldn’t be surprised if the number is completely made up and has no connection to anything protoypical.

Mike S.

4

There were several variants on the “scout” body casting and they were not interchangeable and as prewardude posted previously, these castings are identified as “generic steam locomotive” in the original service bulletins. When a casting was done on a prototype it was generally noted as well as gross descrepencies (like wheel arrangements).

Lionel considered itself primarily a toy company, just one that specialized in toy trains. While they did produce a number of scale models in the earlier years it is only in the last ten or so that they have gotten seriously involved in scale model trains of particlar prototoypes and this usually involves the higher end of their product line.

5

Well,

Here is a bit of History for the NYC Flyer locomotive that came in your set.

Production of the 4-4-2’s started in the 1970’s, however using the tooling from Lionel’s postwar 2037’s. In the early 1990’s the engine was modified to look like it does today.

However, the Modified starter set 4-4-2’s had a waterheater in front of the smoke stacks. This was continued up until 1999. This Atlantic appered in the Chessapeake and Ohio, Pennsylvania, New York Central, Lionel Lines, Santa Fe, and the Delaware and Hudson. These are the only roadnames I know of, but there might have been more.

In 1996 I beleive, the NYC flyer set was first cataloged. Instead of Trainsounds, the engine had a plain air-whistle. With it came 2 freight cars and a caboose. It came with an oval of Tubular Track (100 year old Fastrack predesscesor), grade crossings, and a die-cast truck.

Over the years the freight cars were changed, but the engine remained the same, until 1999 or 2000, when it was given Railsounds.

In 2000, the starter set 4-4-2 was redesigned. It was just the same without the waterheater in front of the smoke stack. The set components were the same.

In 2003, the new track system called Fastrack was introduced and put in all starter sets. The NYC was given Fastarck, and a CW80 controller.

In 2005, the sound system was changed to Trainsounds, the little brother to Railsounds. Railsounds was put in the high end engines, and Trainsounds were in the Traditional locomotives. The cars were changed.

This year nothing about the engine is different exceot that the set has a red caboose instead of a green one like last year, and a searchlite car was added.

The add-on packs were introduced in 2005. There was a freight and Passenger for both the Pennsy Flyer and the NYC Flyer. The freight packs were changed for 2006. The Passenger Packs remained the same.

If you want to see the old catalogs, Lio

6

Throughout most of Lionel’s history, the majority of locos and rolling stock had numbers representing some form of the Lionel catalog number, not the number of a prototype. Prototype numbers started appearing on greater numbers of locos in the 90’s, especially the more expensive ones.

I suspect the 8670 number on your loco is shorthand for the catalog number, 28670. Try an e-mail to Lionel, asking for the part number of the locomotive from your set (provide the set number). I did that for the loco on a different set and got a reply within a day.

7

You’re getting some conflicting answers here. It is true that your 4-4-2 is based on no specific prototype for any railroad living or dead. It is however the latest in a long line of engines decended from the late Pre-War era. Some use the generic term “Scout” for these engines, but that really only applies to a specific group of cheaply made engines with a 2-4-2 wheel arrangement and a motor/reverse unti designed by Satan himself!

But boiler castings of this kind have come in a HUGE variety over the past 60+ years, with a HUGE variety of motors/smoke units/reverse units & tenders. Some castings were plastic, while others were die-cast. Some had smoke units, some did not, and one had a smoke unit with no plunger assembly, but rather a hole drilled in the front of the smokebox to allow air to blow through and up the stack when the engine was at speed!

The 4-4-2’s made by LIONEL starting in the 1973 time-frame have no relation to your engine other than a shared wheel arrangement. Your engine is based on the slightly smaller boiler casting of the 2-4-2 Columbias, of which The Scout was a member.

But sometime around 1986 engineers at LIONEL “stretched” the nose on the 2-4-2 casting to allow for a four-wheel pony truck, plastic smoke unit, and CAN motor with a solid state reverse board. The 2-4-2 became a 4-4-2! All engines in this group have die-cast shells. The first versions had no feedwater heater tank above the headlight, then later versions did, and then they disappeared again.

LIONEL introduced The New York Central Flyer set around 1993. It was originally cataloged with the feedwater tank, and was painted a light gray. The set was shown with the 1130T “shorty tender” also in gray with lettering reminscient of the Post War #221. It was not however made this way. The engines were black, and the tender shell was the same as the one you have now. The cars all had plastic trucks and couplers, there was no light in the caboose, and the cars were made w

8

We have 2 different NYC Flyer sets. One, a feedwater version from the early 90’s and one from 2004. The sets are quintessential Lionel as you’d remember from childhood. Occasionally, Lionel changes the cab number and paint scheme on the locomotive, and the cars change from year to year. I notice that the latest Flyer sets now come with 3 freight cars. One of which is an operating car. Lionel has wisely expanded the set and its play value.

We just ran our Flyer last night, pulling a 10 car consist. The kids love it. So does their dad!

Jim

9

Kooljock1 is correct about the history of this steamer. It is dereived from the Scout shell, a Columbia type 2-4-2 engine. The number on it has no historical bearing at all. Further, the 4-4-2 wheel arrangement on this boiler shell is wrong. Lionel low-priced steamers were always only meant to provide a general composite steam engine look – nothing specific. That said, the engine is great as far as I’m concerned. Absolutely one of the few remaining “postwar feel” steamers and a darn good and reliable runner. I have a number of them. A great value at $100!

10

What a great post!

Partly because it was exactly what I was wondering only I didn’t want to ask here without first trying to find out, so I spent all yesterday getting glazed eyes going through hundreds of photos and sites trying to find a match to my 4-4-2! Which was worth doing as it gave me a heck of an education!

Secondly because of the always informative answers. Thats the great joy of this forum, the information one gets and the excellent advice.

Its a great little loco isn’t it? So far its the only one I have and as my son gave it to me I don’t want to meddle with it so I’m looking for a source of shells or more locos of the same kind to make changes to.

I’d like to pop out those green gems and put in mini LED’s for the lights on the front and have a go at drilling out the drivers to make the spokes ‘see thru’ and a few other mods too. I like fiddling around with stuff like that, and taking things apart to see how they work and if anything can be done to make 'em better.

Because its a great little loco at a good price I’m thinking of trying to acquire a few more, hoping not only to build up a stable in my own livery but also to get a representative sample of the various mechanisms and features.

That was why I was asking about sources of detailing parts the other day, I want to Dremel off the molded handrails and piping and replace it with the real thing. I also would like to acquire aa couple of the earlier iterations with the open frame motor and worm drive and so on.

The ‘own livery’ idea is because I’d like to repaint and remodel them to look like GWR and LMS, LNER locos. As Lionel won’t make English locos (apart from the Thomas ones) I figure I’ll mutate some myself.

11

I’ve seen one or two with seperately applied handrails. They do look sharp. I’ve thought about drilling out a shell to accept wire handrails. I’m also on the lookout for a spare shell for the exact same reason. I want to repaint one, and weather it, just to see how realistic I can make it look. Then I’ll redo the tender, also weathered, as a B&M. I’ve also purchased some seated engineer and firemen figures to add inside the cab.

Reconditioned starter set locos sell for cheap at Lionel’s visitor center. I’ve also seen the older ones, especially the postwar ones and Scouts sell for @ $15 - $20 at shows. That’s for a working loco and tender. Nobody wants them. Shells sell for $5 - $10. I passed at picking up a replacement 2034 shell that was in great shape for $10 once. Been kicking myself ever since. Mine is missing both marker lights.

Not to get off-subject, but K-Line’s starter set steamers are also great looking. The pilots on those have actual holes, not molded in ones. The wheel arrangement is different as well. I’d like to pick one of those up too.

Jim

12

I had another go on yours and my behalf , here’s the results:-

1st. Search term = Lionel 4-4-2

This netted me this useful website which tells how to improve one
and also claims the prototype was a Pennsylvania RR ClassE6

http://www.girr.org/girr/tips/tips1/atlantic_tips.html

This loco is the Lionel Pennsy E6 but not the one I have
http://www.lionel.com/Products/Catalogs/Catalog.cfm?CatalogID=5&PageID=473

Mine looks like this a 6-28652
http://www.lionel.com/Products/Catalogs/Catalog.cfm?CatalogID=5&PageID=466

2nd. Search term = Lionel 4-4-2 prototype

The following is, for O gauge newbies, a very useful 4 page FAQ.
It didn’t answer the question though.

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/model-railroad-faq/tinplate/part1/

3rd. Search term = 4-4-2 Steam Locomotives
Sidebar choice:- Pictures

Tried to find a picture close to my Lionel loco but no such luck.
However I did find an English Atlantic to use as a model for altering my Lionel suitably.

http://www.semg.org.uk/steam/h1-h2_04.html

So finally, I tried this search term
4th. Search term = Pennsylvania R.R. K4

Which netted me these pictures, check out the very cool streamliner K4.
These locos resemble mine more than any others I’ve found.

http://www.yesteryeardepot.com/pennsyr.htm

13

Hey Thor,
It is a real pity that Lionel don’t make British outline stuff.
I for one would love to see a GWR King class having been born and brought up in the south west of England. Or a LNER A4 pacific! now that would be kick ***.

Mind you having only discovered Lionel O just before christmas my son
and I have decided to sell our Hornby OO and use the money to buy more
O. I guess a NYC Flyer set will be on the shopping list to add to our
Santa Fe Fast Freight.

Maybe Hornby will buy KLine and do some new 3 rail British O gauge stuff.
Regards
Nick

14

Thor,

You do realize that those first 2 links have nothing to do with Lionel’s starter set 4-4-2’s right? Those are scale 4-4-2’s. Not O-27.

Jim

15

I knew the first one wasn’t Jim because of the price! But the second one the 6-28652 is around a hundred bucks and looks identical to mine which is painted with Disney markings and part of what is said to be a limited edition collectors set. Mine has smoke, traction tires and that really cool whistling tender which I like the best of all!

16

Sounds just like my story Nick, right down to my son getting me my first set for Christmas, except I’m from the South East - Hertfordshire. I actually saw Mallard running full blast along the Stevenage embankment! I spent my early years riding down to Cornwall at every opportunity and saw all those great engines in the metal. My grandpa worked for BR management and had an open pass, I got to travel the length and breadth of Britain for free and did so right until the very last days of steam.

I went to this site and found a nice dimensioned drawing of an SBR Atlantic:- http://www.users.waitrose.com/~n25ga/Locos/ayesha.htm
and got all excited because the two locos are the same length (divide SBR by 2) but the wheels are more close coupled and getting the footplate shape and splashers right would mean drastic surgery so I guess all one could do is alter the Lionel to be ‘in the style of’ by cleaning off the shell’s molded on stuff and using maybe Bondo or similar to suggest the lines (though I think I’d have a go at that footplate line because its so important) - styrene or brass?

I still think it would be worth a shot though. Better than risking a divorce by going after an ACE or Bassett-Lowke model!

17

If you are looking for a lower priced engine based on a NYC prototype look at the MTH 4-6-0 starter set engine(not the old time one from the 1800’s but the 20th century based one). This model is based on a New York Central F class ten wheeler. It is pretty close to the style of the actual engine for a good price.

The other starter set steamers from MTH are also close to real engines as well. Some of these are in constant production like the 2-8-0, others like the 4-8-2 go in and out. Because they were from starter sets they are usually more easy to find because of higher production #'s.

Here is a list of the MTH starter set engines and what they where based on.
2-8-0 = Pennsylvania H-? class, consolidation
2-6-0 = Southern Pacific ? class, mogul
0-4-0T= Baltimore and Ohio ? class, docksider
4-8-2 = New York Central L-? class, mountain
4-6-0= (19th century look) Disney World Florida theme park engine, ten wheeler
4-6-0= (20th century look) New York Central F class, ten wheeler

18

Thanks to everyone that contributed to my initial post on the Lionel NYC Flyer 4-4-2 locomotive question. There is a lot more information here than I got from Lionel itself.

It seems to me Lionel is really missing out on some very powerful marketing fodder by not having a write-up in their brochure or manual talking about the design of the locomotive - even if it isn’t prototypical. They could at least explain that this depiction is simplified model and print some images of real locomotives showing what the common or shared features are that make up this “composite” steam locomotive. The other option they have is to actually model one of the old steamers from the huge selection of NYC steam locomotives. If this is one of their best selling kits then the mold costs shouldn’t be a major concern and they could really put together a fabulous marketing campaign that features some old photos of the actual working locomotive and provide a detailed history and perhaps even some engineering drawings! The other thing they pooched in the 2005 set was to change the color of the caboose to green - aren’t cabooses suppose to be red? I went out and bought a red one on eBay!

Having dumped on Lionel, I have to admit, for $250 this is a very neat train set. I bought the set for my 22-month old twins and I’m in the process of designing and constructing a wall mounted layout in their bedroom. Since it will be mounted about 12 inches below the ceiling (well out the reach inquisitive little hands!) I’m glad I opted for the O-gauge instead of the much smaller (albeit cheaper) HO gauge. I didn’t realize the entire train was going to weight over 5 pounds and stretch over 44" in length!

Thanks everyone for your kind input!!

19

Glad we could help out, Michael. Enjoy that train! [:)]

Regards,
Clint

20

Actually I don’t think I’ve ever seen a picture of a red New York Central caboose. Brown, yes. Green, yes. But only red in toy train sets! Cabeese for other roads came in almost every color you could imagine, from RUTLAND’s fire engine red re-paints of New York Central hacks, to Long Island’s yellow & orange to Penn Central’s puke-green!

Jon [8D]