History of Proto 2000 and 1000 engines.

Model Railroader General Discussion (Model Railroader)
1

What is the history of the Proto engines? Reason I ask is the color of there boxes. I just got a BL 2 Monon that box is a brown green color. When I pulled the chassis it looked all most like a Athearn Blue Box. Only thing I found diffrent was there is a gound plug in the chassis and chassis coupler mounting point is up side down which is a good idea.

Box says it has a 5 skew pole motor, but looks just like all the Blue Box motors I have. In fact it pulls the same power as my Super Weight and pulls the same drag as my Super Weight Athearn F-7. Did Athearn make make this engine?

It pulls more power than my other Proto 2000’s as well. I have the following.

A and B powered Proto 1000 Erie Bulit, see though small boxes that is gray.

A and B powered Proto 2000 E-6’s box is blue

A E-6 powered and has a gray box.

On the E-6’s the only thing driffrent is the coupler box. E-6 with the gray box has a screw that hold the lid on. But same power needed as for all the Protos excpet the BL 2?

BL 2 is all so light in weight, only 14 OZ’s. Super Weight comes in at 16 OZ’s.

As far as parting out the BL 2? I must say I like it a lot and on the hunt for another one.

Cuda Ken

2

I’m pretty sure that the BL2 was the very first P2K engine. So it could very likely have some variations on what became the more standard P2K theme.

I’ve also heard the P2K mechanism called an “improved” Athearn drive, so it wouldn’t surprise me if it was very similar. It’s been years since I saw the guts of the BL2 so I can’t be much more help here.

Other than the wildly varying gear ratios, I’m pretty happy with my P2K fleet. No BL2s, as it’s Rio Grande, but the D&RGW tended to run straight sets of diesels in the 50s and early 60s, so it’s not the problem it would be for some other prototypes. I’d still like to mix things up a bit, as happened in real life. Walthers says they will standardize the gear ratios on future P2K releases, so there is hope of eventually getting the hardware to update older units.

3

I remember when the first Life-Like Proto 2000 loco came out. It was the BL2. The Life-Like loco boxes, in chronological order, are

Brown box: BL2, FA-2, GP18
Light blue box: SW9, E8, E7, SW8, GP7, GP30, first run of GP9s, SD7
Darker blue box: GP9 phase 2, S1, S3
Grey box: current Proto 2000 production

As far as I know the Proto 1000 boxes were always white.

Some Life-Like locos use an Athearn type motor (FA units, Geeps), others use a Kato-type motor (SWs, C-liners, RS units), and the Alco switchers use the same motor as Atlas’s S-series switchers.

Also, some Life-Like locos have Kato type trucks (with wraparound clips to hold the sideframes in place) and others have Athearn style trucks (with push-in pins to hold the sideframes in place).

4

I too, noticed that the drives were similar to Athearn’s drive units. That’s why I started buying P2K’s. I was already sold on Athearn’s because of their ruggedness and durability. The P2K’s perform the same way, though much more quietly.

5

I believe Athearn supplied the parts for the Protos. Kevin

6

For fun but,true…For years modelers wanted highly detailed plastic locomotives similar to the brass steam locomotives.The reply from the manufacturer was “such highly detailed locomotives would be cost prohibited to manufacture and sell” and thus it was a stand off and modelers continue to detail the available locomotives…Then in the late S a toy train manufacture called Life Like introduce a high detailed caboose complete with interior the likes of which had never been seen before.This was followed by a highly detailed BL.

This locomotive was the start of things to come…And that folks is why we have highly detailed locomotives available today because we modelers wanted better detailed engines.

Now Life Luke’s PK line suffer from a major problem unlike any other manufacturer…They use DIFFERENT gear ratios…I understand Walther’s is to address this problem.

Comment:Even though LL cloned Athearns drive they chose to use different ratios that was incompatible between their locomotives and those of other brands yet they took the Athearn drive one step father and added the much needed weight.

Go figure.

7

Different gear ratio’s in what, their (Proto 2000) loco’s or different from everybody else? All manufacturers don’t use the same gear ratio’s. I don’t see the problem here.

8

Dave,Unlike other manufacturers LL gear ratio was all over the spectrum of ratios…Some following runs of the same engine type had gear ratios different then the first run…

LL used the following

12-1

14-1

18-1

9-1

and

6-1.

So,you can see the different gear ratios LL used.

9

Life-Like’s first 4 axle trucks were copies of Athearn’s trucks, and the motor also looks very similar. I’m pretty sure Life-Like did make the entire mechanisms themselves, with no help from Athearn. If you look at the motors, you’ll notice the LL commutators (part the brushes contact) are smaller and smoother, and the case is silver instead of gold. They do have 5 pole skewed armatures, and the motors themselves draw less current than an Athearn motor, but the PC board and drive bring the current back up. Life-Like also uses a Canon type motor in their P1Ks and some of their P2Ks, which is probably what’s in your other Protos.

The brown boxes came with the early P2Ks, and then they later used a blue box. Both hold the frame separate from the engine for better protection. The new boxes hold it all in one piece (they must have fixed the damage problems).

I’m glad you like it.[:D] I’ve got a couple Proto engines, and they’re both great![:D]

10

Please pardon my ignorance [D)] but which of the above is the slowest ratio? Which engines had this slow ratio? I know the SW’s would creep, but which other engines were geared down that low?

11

The 18:1 in the SD50 and 60 and the E units. The SD7 and 9s run slow and pull but not sure if they also used the lower gearing also.

Maybe Brakie or others may know.

12

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and looks like a duck, could it be a duck? Either it be a duck or a chucker (chucker looks like a duck but make’s chucking sound) I like the BL 2.

It is sitting on a spur wating till I find another Monon to double headed it with. 20 cars was it max with the grade I have, about the same of the Athearn Super weight so not bad. I have a powered B for the Super weight. I will post some PIC in a few days.

Cuda Ken

13

That is dumb, I wonder why they would do that. I guess I’ve been lucky so far, all my Proto’s that are the same engine type run well together. Thats the first time I’ve heard of LL doing that.

14

They probably did it to make certain engines run at speeds closer to the prototypes, except for the 6:1 gearing, of course, which causes some of their freight diesels to out-run Super Man.

Hobbytown does the same thing, but the gears are all interchangable, so you don’t have to modify anything to get different gearing. Just pop the different gears in and go!

15

I think it is great. The real railroad’s ordered different gear ratios in different locomotives. It is a pitty is isn’t an option that the modelers can choose. I noticed the new F7s for the Empire Builder set are going to be 1:14. I would prefer 1:12 for a passenger loco.

16

Woulda-Shoulda-Coulda-Ken:

1. FEW - if any - Manufacturers make their own motors. PRODUCTION CHANGES during a product’s lifetime are a way of life. Some are done to correct mistakes, most are done to reduce cost, Ie: increase profit.

If you want two identical motors, you best to have the same production run. Same for motors, gears, lights, electronics, and colors on the boxes.-And this is on suff you buy new.

2. You mentioned your (3) "P2K/P21K’s pulling 2 amps" (collectively). Something is wrong!

Either ONE of them is defective and pulling over 1 amp by itself, or you they’re Life Like - not PROTO engines because I can run 8 PROTO 1K & 2K’s on that same 2 amps +/- 5% - and I bought mine when they first came out! You have meters. Use them.

3. YOU have a conglomeration of problems brought on by your purchasing habits.

I run 38’ of main over 6 turnouts - not including spurs, passing sidings, yards, and with 0 derailments. It takes more than 'pushing in’pins, and ‘plopping in’ wheelsets , unless you want to just ‘play’ trains.

For example, it I have a derailment between cars I pull BOTH off and sub KATO trucks one one or both. That ends the derailment, and I can run them through my shop when I can spend more time. Kato trucks only cost $4.95 pr. You can afford 2 on a $10 weekly budget.

SO, my friend, SHORTCUT CITY isn’t the answer… Or, is IT?

17

Mr Gibson, if the you are talking to me "You mentioned your (3) “P2K/P21K’s pulling 2 amps" (collectively). Something is wrong!” You need to double check my posting. I never said a word about PK’s pulling 2 amps? On the B line with triple headed PK’s and dragging 60 cars (cheap one as that[:X] ) I am only pulling .8 amps. The tripled heade Blue’s are pulling 1.2 amps quade headed Blues cranked up hit 2.0 amps but where cooking.

As far as the derailing problem, that is gone for now. RTR Athearn had a casting flaw on one of the flanges, it would catch a turn out and lift a wheel then drag it around the board. To me now derail is not flipping of the board our falling over.

As far as YOU have a conglomeration of problems brought on by your purchasing habits. Don what you have missed is I have worked past the problems my cheap stuff brought on. You need to understand I have very minor problems now like my spelling![:)]

Cuda Ken

PS, wish there was a smiley faces sticking it tought out. [:)]

18

Some years ago I travelled to London and paid a visit to a well known model railway store, now sadly closed, and told the staff I wanted to start modelling American railroads.

I asked for a loco that was highly detailed, state of the art and not to expensive, after some thought they offered me one of the newly arrived Proto 2000 Monon BL2’s. I was so impressed I bought it without hesitation, it was so superior to the available British models of the time.

It was the first issue by Proto 2000 and I was so pleased with it I have been buying their locos ever since and now have over 100.

Sadly the railroad empire I planned came to nought and a much smaller layout developed, I have also moved on to model other roads and the poor two Monon BL2’s which have hardly ever been used are now to be sold.

One of my grandsons, now living in here in England, is named Ben Rivera, when we were looking without success for a name for our freelance steam models the penny dropped and we simply deleted the “A” from his name and the BEN RIVER RAILROAD was born, so we now have steam as well.

So the very first release by Proto 2000, the BL2, certainly started something for us, we now follow the RI, GMO, MP, GN and DRGW, needless to say many of our models are Proto, we have never had a bad one and have no complaints at all about them.

Though the situation has improved greatly with British models we will not change from our US roads, you don’t know how lucky you are.

19

I don’t know what the gear ratio on my P2K PA1 is, but at half throttle, the only thing that keeps it from flying off the track is it’s super heavy weight. Have you seen what happens if the power is cut suddenly? It’ll coast a long ways. I have a block that’s 3 feet long and it will coast all the way across it pulling ten cars without a problem. I intend to get another one and doublehead them. I already have two Athearn PA’s, but the gear ratio on them is nowhere near the same as the P2K unit.

20

I think you missed something here, Brakie was talking about different ratio’s in the same loco’s. Imagine two GP38’s with different gear ratio’s, you wouldn’t be able to MU them as one would run faster then the other.