Hi guys, new to HO.
I’m trying to determine what the market size is for HO Subway sets made by the various manufactures. There are several U-tube video’s of fellows showing their subway sets and EL structures, but that still does not tell me how many folks are active in this market. Any comments are appreciated.
jim r
Jim,
I have no idea, but the Internet Pundit in me says the numbers are likely small, as subway and transit modeling is a sub-set of all traction modeling and that is maybe 2% on a good day when the wind is blowing right. I’d say “several hundred” is a good guess. We have several folks here who do subways, so they may have a better idea.
The good thing is that anyone who does model transit needs multiple trainsets, which helps the numbers some. I’m familiar with the old Life-Like/now Walthers cars, but wasn’t aware of others that are RTR vs kit. I think the LL cars are New York City lines?
In October there’s a traction meet at Rutgers campus in New Brunswick, N.J.
The attendees are about equally split between trolley/streetcar/interurban modelers and subway/el modelers.
Besides the LifeLike models, which are NYC subways, there’s a company called Island Modelworks that makes resin models of subways, el cars and commuter equipment, all New York/New Jersey?Philadelphia area stuff.
The subway modelers appear to be younger guys who live with the subways daily and I’d guess there’s a healthy audience for the products.
I’ve seen brass models as well, and MTH has issued several transit models in O-scale high rail, for which there are scale conversion kits or versions available.
Eric
LION was always fascinated by subway trains. (lots of tasty people inside). Him was content to model commuter railroads with push-pull equipment since no affordable subway cars were available. (Brass at $400./car was never an option for a LION).
As soon as Life-Like came out with and affordable subway train the LION was all over them. As LION understands the events, the initial run was NOT Life-Like’s idea, rather the good folks over at Trainworld commissioned and purchased the entire first run and sold them exclusively in their stores. Serious NYC modelers helped with the specs and drawings. Life-Like and then Walthers have made several runs of the cars and they have all sold out. At the moment, LION has eight six car trains running the rails on his layout. It is quite impressive. (Him has 14 scale miles of mane lion track). Two more trains would really be great, but will also cost close to $500.00 a sum that the LION does not have, or indeed is likely to have.
ROAR
I, too, have always been fascinated by subways. When I saw the Life-Like models, I also jumped on them. I built a subway first, and then a “normal” layout on top of them.
Turn on the sound, too…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQ5OvZtI-QU&feature=channel
I have two sets of Life-Like cars. I run 4-car trains. The video was done with a camera mounted inside one of the cars. It’s completely enclosed, and you’d never know there was a camera in there unless you looked at the car very closely.
Life-Like, as I recall, did 3 different versions of the cars. Then, they were purchased by Walthers, who continued to issue new colors and new road numbers. Maybe the production runs are small, but they always sell them out. I’m kind of surprised, actually, that they sell so many of these. Offhand, I can only think of 3 of us here who have subway lines. I’d be willing to bet that most of the subway trains that Walthers and Life-Like have sold over the years are sitting in boxes. They are really neat models, but it takes a lot of effort to actually build a proper layout to run them.
Demographically, I’m just at retirement age, and I live in the suburbs of Boston. I’ve incorporated trolleys into my subways, too, like the Boston MBTA which runs both light-rail and heavy-rail trains. Light-rail should not be overlooked as a component of traction modeling that would be interested in above ground El structures. They are probably a bigger group than us underground guys.
I recall someone offering a trainset quality subway set that was actually of Japanese prototype but looked generic enough to serve as a decent stand in. If I was the sort of electrical genius who could have a fully automatic signal and detection system where the system ran the trains, it could be fun to have a heavy schedule of subway cars as a sort fo “proof of concept.” I have been on the Washington DC Metro system a few times where human error caused enough of a close call that I think a fully automated system could make some sense. But then it would not provide the employment levels that are probably an important political consideration for such trainsit systems.
I have been to an incredible Lionel layout where the upper level is a magnificant collection of trains and tracks, and the lower level is either a busy subway system or an underground mine. Fanciful but jawdropping.
Dave Nelson
be willing to bet that most of the subway trains that Walthers and Life-Like have sold over the years are sitting in boxes. They are really neat models, but it takes a lot of effort to actually build a proper layout to run them.
Not Quite Mine sits on display in the dining room with the Hess Trucks, The M&M trains and the wedding train
LION is by no means an electrical genius. But him is installing full automation on the cheap. (LION cannot afford purchased train detection at $30.00 a pop when him needs almost 100 of the things.)
SO the road to automation:
decide on 4, 6, 8 or 10 car sets. Remove the couplers and replace same with provided draw bars.
As long as you are doing this, open the cars, remove the supplied circuit boards, install LED lighting, and route two twisted pairs of fine wire between all of the cars. One pair is for traction power (Can you say 48 wheel pick-up) and the other pair is for (eventual) constant lighting systems.
Buy a variable 0-14 volt regulated DC power supply putting out say 5 amps. LION connected (-) to GROUND and to the LEFT rail. Him connected (+) to the power bus and the right rail.
LION cut gaps in the tracks and installed a series of three 5.1 ohm resistors to slow the trains as the approach and leave the stations. Power gaps also stop the trains in the stations. A time clock providing four distinct 10 second impulses each minute (every 15 seconds) is used to pull in station relays that will bridge the gap and allow the trains to depart the station after a suitable pause.
Having found such success with this automation the LION discovered that he could have gaps that will detect the movement of the trains. Him cut two gaps about six inches apart in the power rail, and use a wire to bridge the isolated section. The isolated section is connected to a 4PDT 12 Vdc Relay. The passing of the train pulls the relay in and one set of terminals latches it. (passing the next station releases the relay) Other terminals are used for signaling fore and aft of this station,
Actually I love model subway cars, I remember the Life Like versions but they were okay. Island Model Works makes subway cars for Chicago (CTA) in a few different series and I think they make them for New York and Boston as well but don’t quote me on that. They are expensive though. They come as kits. They come in two car sets for $99.99 and then you have to buy the engine to go in them for $89.99 and then the decals are like another $20.00 or so. Therefore for six or eight cars you would be looking at $600+ minumum. I want them for my new layout but probably won’t happen since I don’t plan on spending that type of money for a rapid transit consist.
I do subway.
Metro was operating in full automatic mode the day of the fatal Red Line collision in 2009.
Given that they can’t successfully operate escalators or take less than a year to build a staircase, humans should probably stay in the loop there.
I was in DC doing research the summer of 09 right after the accident and rode Metro extensively during the two weeks I was there. IIRC, the problem was traced to a faulty piece of signaling equipment aggravated by poor installation and maintenance practices. So plenty of blame to go around, glad I don’t have to sort it out legally.
Much of my riding was on the line the accident occurred on. There was considerable manual control through that particular section, as they still were trying to pin down the issues. I was actually impressed with how well they managed things during rush hour.
In the end, the real issue underneath is the disinvestment in our national infrastructure that has effectively been government policy over the last 50 years. Travelers to other countries often remark about the rundown, low budget, slapdash look of much of our transportation systems. Tragically, some of us suffer more than others do in simple embarrassment.[:(]
What’s this got to do with mass transit models? We can only hope that someday we’ll start electing politicians that want to run a modern country, instead of figuring out how to give someone else who doesn’t need it a tax cut while still suckering you into voting for them. Then there will be a surge of construction, where kids, office workers, and blue collar craftspeople are all exposed to mass transit for the first time, bringing about a surge of interest in such models. if one looks at the history of traction modeling, it’s closely tied to the expansion and contraction of the prototype, the example of the Pacific Electric and Los Angeles coming foremost to my memory.
I’m surprised no one has tried to market N scale subway trains in the states. There are a lot of N scalers in urban areas due to the limited space in apartments. I have seen some urban modelers use Tomix and Kato Japanese subway trains as a substitution. There has to be a market for New York , Philly or Chicago rapid transit in N. I know I would want some!!!
Jim
Seems to me that MR had an article about modeling a subway system on a layout with very little expenditure. No tracks or cars were needed. All the was required was a pair of street level subway entrances, a fan, and a tape recorder with sounds of a train entering and leaving the station. The fan was needed to blow debris out the entrance and had to be synchronized to the sound of the arriving train.
LION remembers that one. I think they ran it in the April issue one year.
Maybe the LION should write an article for MR on the subway. I’ll need to be a pit further along, and I’ll need some better photos of the system. Does MR want an article? I’ll keep the teeth marks off of it.
ROAR
Mr. B.
That is one great subway ride. WOW, very impressed. [Y]
Brian
Many of us “Hims” out here would look forward to it. Perhaps a 2-parter with “Lion Part1” the standard type of Subway Article, and; “Lion Part2” dedicated to Broadway Electronics.
I beg to differ. LION has demonstrated real genius, building an automated subway system using older technology and almost zero dollars.
LION should definitely continue to document his progress with an eye towards eventual publication. Why should we on the forums be the only ones to benefit from this really unique layout?
Who knows? Tell the Abbot that visitors may even buy some wine. I can see it now. “Hey, Abbot…”
Hi Eric. Can you give me some additional info on the Rutgers show such as scales shown, number of attendees, manufactures that exhibit, etc. I normally take part in the York TCA meet which is a week or two earlier and is basically O scale. I would like to exhibit my ELevated Bridge system to other scales also, particularly HO. Any info would be appreciated.
tks.
jim r