Hi, does anyone have any track plans that utilizes 22 degree curves for larger locomotives on a 4 x 8 or bigger (medium size) layout. If possible I want it to include main line running for 2 trains running at same time possibly in opposite directions with sidings for some industry too if possible. Thanks. [:D]
Hi Junkie.
The width on a 8x4 is 48 “. Divided by two means that 24” is the distance between the edge and a centerpoint. Trains will have to keep some distance to the edge, I prefer 4" though 2" is the absolute minimum. This means that 22" is the max radius possible for the outer curve. When double tracking the inner curve must have a smaller radius. Depending on how long your engines or cars are a spacing of 2,5" to 3" is needed. So the radius of the inner curve will be about 19" .
The above is easy math, the only way two trains will be running at the same time will be by double track. Chances are, you will not find the trackplans you are looking for. Since you are asking for the impossible.
A 9x5 table-tennis board might seem a better option. With the needed walk-around space on three sides the space requirement will then be 11,5 x 10. Allowing for a 2,5 feet wide walking space around three sides of your empire. Narrow shelves around a central operating pit, even along the walls might be a way to go. Probably making even larger radii possible.
You could read this: http://www.layoutvision.com/id28.html
and by using links: http://www.layoutvision.com/id56.html
When you could accept a lift-out or drop-down feature before the door, even alternatives without return loops can be build. Allowing for even broader radii.
Smile
Paul
Thanks for responding Paul. I am not limited on space. It doesnt have to be 4 x 8 table. I was wondering if I could put it on a 4 x 8 table perhaps. I am building my layout in the basement so I have over 1,000 square feet. [:D] If I need a bigger table/benchwork that would be fine. I just want track plans to accomodate my roster of locomotives which I might say is pretty extensive. I have a pretty good mix of small, medium and huge size motive power to run. I was wanting 22 degree curves so that I can if I choose to I can run by mallets, big boys, challengers etc. on the new layout. I dont think space is an issue. Again, thanks.[:D]
With Mallets, Big Boys, and Challengers on the roster, I would be looking at much bigger than 22" radius curves. Which puts an island-style table top pretty much out of the question.
Depending on model manufacturer, reliability of such big engines could be pretty poor on 22" radius, and appearance will certainly be poor. Especially if you are considering running scale length passenger cars behind the Challengers.
For the goals you seem to be describing, and the space you describe, I would recommend a doughnut style twice-around layout, with a fair amount of staging. Putting the operator in the middle of the layout will make it seem larger, and allow minimum radius to be bumped up to the 30"-36" range. Your engines and passenger cars will be much happier, and I believe you will enjoy the layout a lot more. Use 2ft or 30" wide sections by 8ft long, except at the entrance/exit to the center, where you will want the width to be much narrower. 12" width would be ideal for a gate or duckunder.
my thoughts, your choices
Fred W
Loco… you keep saying 22 degree curves, and virtually everyone in model railroading will be speaking of radius rather than degree. A 22 inch radius would still be rather tight for large articulated locomotives; many may be able to go around it, but would look rather ungainly doing so.
Measuring curves by degree is indeed done in the civil engineering world:
Space will not be an issue, radius is however. The engines you own do beg for large radii; between 35 and 50 inches. The same applies for switchnumbers; #8’s would be a great choice.
Reaching in will be a problem if you are thinking in tables. A donut, with a central operating pit might be an alternative.
Smile
paul
This website has a repository of track plans gathered from various MR issues in the track plan data base. You have to be a subscriber to the MR magazine to have access. Kalmbach has published several books over the years that contain similar trackplans. You can always look at back issues of MR and RMC, Railroad Model Craftsman, for samples as well.
If your question is asking the forum to supply you with various websites that have hundreds of trackplans you can look at and study for free, I don’t know of any.
As others have mentioned, 22 inch radius and larger locomotives don’t do well together.
Most modelers have to use sharp curves due to their lack of space. If you do not have a space issue, you should use broad radius curves and design your plan around them. Using broad curves is probably the single best choice in making a track plan look realistic. I’ve had to use 22 inch radius in some spots. I wish I had a minimum of 36.
If you do find some trackplans you like, you can post them here and ask members to critique them.
22 degree curve is 36 inch radius in HO. This should run all the makes of HO locomotives available, but won’t fit on a 4x8 table…
You indicate that you have a lot of space so I would use an even larger radius since your goal is to have a couple of trains running, some with large engines, and do some switching. If feasible, an around the walls layout will allow the use of large radius curves while maximizing the mainline. Otherwise a doughnut layout is probably best for large curves.
Enjoy
Paul
hi Paul,
i missed the degree part. Radius in inches in HO = 800 / degree of curvature. (approximately)
Here R = 800 / 22 = 36 inches.
Your table should be 2 times 36+4 = 40 inches; so 80 inches wide. More then 6 feet, a 4 feet wide table will not be sufficient.
I did read wrong, however did the original poster really meant degrees ?
BTW an around the wall type of layout could be considered as a (big) donut. Not counting peninsula’s.
Paul
Great point, Paul.
If the OP meant “degree” not “radius”, and he did say degree, then he is asking about 36 inch radius which should handle any size steamer or diesel without derailment issues.
But, then, it is going to require a larger layout surface than 4 x 8 which the OP Indicates that he is willing to consider.
Obviously, a 36 inch radius curve is going to require a width of at least 72 inches (disregarding the need for additional space to handle possible disasters from derailed equipment) to complete a semi-circle.
If the OP meant radius, however, then a 22 inch radius curve is going to present problems with larger equipment including some steamers and, possibly, some larger diesels.
We will have to wait to hear back from the OP.
Rich
I was told that 22 radius excuse the degree my bad was the smallest radius curve to use with large locomotives. Ive noticed that almost all track plans I have seen incorporate 18 radius curves and my larger locomotives will not operate on this radius track. I can use larger radius track as well if I need bigger than 22 radius. Im looking for track plans that use these larger radius curves so that I may run my larger locomotives without the locomotives derailing and alike. I have seen track plans that incorporate 22 radius curves in them on a 4 x 8, but if this will not work, then ok. I can build a bigger layout. If I need larger radius curves then 22 radius, then I will do that too. [:D] I want some good track plans that I can use to build a simple layout so I can operate my larger locomotives on. Keep coming with the ideas. [:D]
Hi Junkie.
you could look at any trackplan. Making it larger is always possible. However the catch is accessibility. Anything further then 2 feet from the edge is hard to reach.
The combination of depth and height of a layout has been filling loads of threads on here. You should be able to uncouple cars and reach them in case of an derailment; and for maintenance as well. Imagine yourself reaching over fragile scenery to work on a track 30" away from you. Building a layout on narrow 16 " wide shelves has advantages.
Any trackplan, every 8x4 could be made larger without reach in problems if you accept a central operating pit. A donut style layout in stead of an island type.
An island type needs access to three sides, the roomspace neededis 10x8 at least:
A donut style layout: no access space around the layout is needed:
Smile
Paul
OK, then, for starters, with a 22 inch radius curve and a 2 inch overhang all around, you are going to needs 48 inch width for a semi-circle on a loop.
My rule of thumb when running steam engines is a 4 inch radius for every set of driver wheels. So, the smallest steamers will run well on 15" and 18" radius curves without fear of derailment. On the other hand, a 4-6-2, for example, would need 22" or 24" radius curves to perform well. A 4-8-4 or 2-8-4 would need 30" or 32" radius curves for flawless performance. A 2-10-2 or 2-10-4 will need something like a 40" radius curve.
Now this is my rule of thumb. Others will contend that even the biggest steamers will run OK on curves as tight as 22 inches or even less if the track work is bullet proof.
Of course, 32" radius curves required layout width of nearly 6 feet. A 40" radius curve is going to require 7 feet of layout width. So, accomodations need to be made where s
n my own experience, there seems to be a point at which enlarging the radius on a layout becomes more a percieved cosmetic consideration, and not an actual need. A couple years ago, I set up an oval of 22" radius track on my basement floor, and ran all my larger engines on it, including the C-C (six axle) diesels and electrics. All my articulateds, including the Rivarossi 2-6-6-6 and 2-8-8-2 ran just fine at all throttle settings. So did my 2-10-2 and 4-8-4. If I had one of the, who makes it, MTH? 4-12-2s, I might try it with the frame unlocked, not not with a full rigid frame. Likewise some of the odder Pennsy rigid frame locos that look like artics.
About the cosmetic appearance, my visual impression, the front porch doesn’t appear, to me, to be swinging any further out of line on a 24" radius curve than wha I thought the front of a Big Boy 4-8-8-4 does in some videos I have. Don’t know what radius curves that monster was traversing, though.
The only real problem rolling stock I have, as far as minimum radius, is actually an old Ambroid 95’ tobacco hogshead car, and a kitbashed SP 3-unit articulated diner. Maybe a couple other cars. And with some mods, they do just fine on 24".
It’s your layout, you only really have to satisfy yourself and your rolling stock. And maybe family living with you
Many recent Mallets are built in an unprototypical way to allow them to run on tight curves, where both sets of drivers can pivot instead of just the front ones. In fact one of the few Mallets that has to prototypical style articulation is the Mantua 2-6-6-2. That’s why the movement of the front set of drivers doesn’t seem as large as it would be if it were built like the prototype.
Back to the OP’s question, you certainly can run a double track mainline using 18" and 22" radius curves. In HO however, you’re going to have some trouble with your large engines and cars. Even some long cars that will go around the 22"R track might overhang enough to affect the 18"R curves. Some long cars might have trouble staying coupled on tight curves too.
If you were starting from scratch, you could build a good layout in a small space, and buy small engines and cars to fit the layout. Since you already have a lot of equipment from small to big, you’d probably want to go with larger curves and a bigger layout. 24" “convential” curves are as small as I would go, 30" “broad” curves would be more realistic.
BTW I think you’d find two trains on a 4x8 HO layout going round-and-round would get boring pretty quickly. A layout with more switching opportunities would probably be more rewarding.
I could see an articulated like a 2-6-6-2 on a 22 inch radius curve, but a 2-8-8-2 may be pushing the limit. Same for the 4-8-4. But, a 2-10-2 ? Lots of luck. I have trouble with that one on my 32 inch radius curves.
Rich
Stix and Fred W. make some good points. Where you are starting out w/ just the ideas of track planning there are quite a variety of option open to you. You do have a rather large space to work with. Just how much of a RR do you plan on building? How much of this space can be dedicated to layout. I would consider a trackplan that will suit your needs, point to point, contiuous running or some combination w/ industries and other operational possibilities.
Many will only have the space for a 4x8 and have to work w/ it. I feel you should rethink your possibilities first.
Type of benchwork, track make and code (not sectional where I feel this 22rad is coming from), any elevations etc all need to be considered.