Hi. I’m new here, so I hope I searched correctly. I searched under this topic but received no hits.
A few days ago I re-read Mark Olstyn’s article about his Central Vermont layout published in MRP2005. Mark highly recommends using hollow-core doors for a benchwork base, and his comments caused me to pause and consider it. I inspected doors at my local building center and I’m now enthused about using doors for the shelf layout I’m planning.
The doors are rock-like rigid yet offer a narrow profile (only 1-3/8" thick) and come in varying widths (18", 24", 28", 30", 32", 36" IIRC). At 80 inches, their length is nearly ideal for easy handling (it seems to me). I’ve read elsewhere that the doors are easily cut to fit needs, and that a 2x2 fits perfectly into the opening made by a saw cut. It’s an easy matter to glue extruded foam atop the doors for a scenery base.
Wiring is run quickly from topside to underneath the door by drilling a hole the diameter of a drinking straw, one of which is inserted into the hole to create a pathway for the wiring (nifty trick, glad I saw it posted online).
I’m concerned, though, about how to attach the doors to one another as successive sections of the layout is constructed. My thought right now is to glue 1x4 wood sections to the ends of the doors, and those portions of the 1x4s hanging below the door could be drilled to accept bolts and nuts or locating dowels.
But, I wonder if such a glue joint (made with wood glue) would be strong enough. (Maybe it would be a good idea to also fasten the 1x4 to the door using a drywall-type screw, one that opens “wings” once inserted through a hole; I don’t know what they’re called.) If anyone here has built hollow-core benchwork, please advise how you connected the sections. Would much appreciate it.
Heh. Im using 30 year old doors two inches thick and are awaiting the base work. One advantage to those doors is that they have long since adapted to the humidity and temperature changes the entire life of the home.
But I am considering these hollow core doors as a further improvement.
Im considering old style dowels and titebond as a initial joint. Still working on the fastening part of it in my head at the moment. I know the legs will have adjustable feet as there is not a single square angle anywhere in the state Im in.
Safety Valve, you don’t live in the four corners area, then (AZ-NM-CO-UT)? (grin)
With dowels and titebond, you’re thinking permanent connection, I take it? My layout must be portable (I hope to move from Iowa to Vermont in 3-4 years); are you thinking about inserting dowels into holes drilled into the ends of the doors, do I understand you?
I’m intending to use shelving metal strips around the walls (it hooks onto and hangs from the foundation sill). Since the strips will not be screwed to the poured concrete walls (I’m renting), I’m thinking I’m going to have to tightly connect the door “dominoes”.
Further, I believe I’ll glue two 1x2 lengthwise runners to the bottomside of the doors to which I’ll run screws through the metal horizontal arms (that extend from the wall shelving strips). How are you thinking of attaching legs to your doors? Directly, or perhaps atop an L-girder framework with legs?
Ralph, would you mind explaining the “splice plate” further? I can’t visualize what you mean.
Just a piece of wood screwed to both doors? If so, the thin broad surface of the hollow door holds screws well? (I’ve been thinking this surface would be too thin to adequately hold screws.)
I rely on my Kato track to be portable when it becomes necessary to move the railroad. I expect the benchwork to be chainsawed and burned in the firepit while a new one built.
Hollow core doors are a good consideration, I believe David Popp’s now famous N Scale New Haven is built with this method.
I recall the 4 corners area from trucking, it’s just not my country. I prefer the sea. =) Good luck!
As an engineer a hollow core door offers a number of advantages. As a background I beams were developed because it was known that the maximum tension and compression are at the top and bottom so engineers started putting all the steel there. Now if only we could get rid of that pesky web :-)! Most nontechie types will be surprised to know that a box beam made of one x 4’s is infinitely stronger than a solid 4 x 4 for the same reason. I would seal the door with varnish first and I wouldn’t be concerned about cutting holes in the bottom side to install things like switch motors because the skin is really a thin plywood. I would round the corners of any openings however just to relieve any stresses. It should be fairly easy to slip a filler piece inside the hole with glue on it if there is concern about structurally weakening the door. I don;t think it would be necessary however.
B&M, I think you’ll be pleased. I’m using four hollow-core doors for my temporary island layout (which must be periodically taken down) while I finish out the room for the permanent layout and they have worked out very well. I did prime all sides and paint the top. To keep them together I use steel strips about 3/4 inch wide by 4 inches long, with four screw holes. I believe the technical name for these is the splice plates mentioned by another responder. You can put them underneath the doors at each joint and they are not even visisble. Your straw method should work fine for pulling wiring but I used brass tubing.
I’m not following how you intend to provide vertical support. Given that as a renter you cannot attach directly to your wall, one idea is to build sawhorses, and use metal angles to attach the door(s). There are several hardware options that allow you to do this easily, and even disassemble the saw horses when you move. The only tricky part is cutting the bottom of the supports at the correct angle. This can be done using a handsaw with careful work, but I would recommend using a mitre saw; if you do not own or cannot borrow one, you should be able to rent one for a weekend for no more than $25.
The brackets that I use are a high-impact plastic. Although I bought them years ago from Brookstone, they are now offered by a company called Fulton. Here is one link although googling “fulton sawhorse brackets” will come up with other sources. I would NOT use the cheap steel brackets available in any hardware store.
I think that hollow core doors are actually a torsion box, not an I-beam. So if you take too much material from the top or bottom skins, you signfiicantly reduce the strength of the overall structure. They are engineered to hang vertically, not horizontally like for a layout, so you just have to be careful not to hack them up too much so they stay rigid enough not to sag.
Have you thought about using the plastic topped tables with folding legs they sell at places like Lowes and Home Depot? They are light, very strong, self-supporting, and can easily be bolted together. I’m currently building a layout that has two 2x4 sections in the center and two 4x4 sections on each end to make a dogbone style layout. The tables hold glue fine and it’s reasonably easy to drill holes and run wires using the drinking straw method you talked about. It would be really easy to take part the layout and move it if I had to,
This is a good chance, I think, for me to thank everyone who has contributed to this thread. I’ve picked up some valuable ideas, and I much appreciate them.
Safety Valve, I’ll check to see if David Popp has a Web site, I’d like to see what he’s doing with doors.
NDBRR, your comment about rounding the edges of any cut openings to relieve stresses seems like a very good one. I wonder if a solid piece of 2-inch extruded foam glued to the top of the door wouldn’t strengthen the door a bit, too. . . . (What do you think, alco-fan?)
Steamnut, at my local building center I’ll look for the spice plates that you and another here mentioned. You must find the thin plywood surface strong enough to screw into, that’s reassuring. . . . I took photos of the vertical wall hanging system I mentioned earlier, and I see an image icon in the tool bar at the top of this window, so I’ll see if I can post it (it’s a montage of three photos).
Also, I’ll look at the Fulton high-impact plastic brackets you mentioned.
UP2CSX (wouldn’t that be the other way around? the plastic table idea is interesting, but I’m hoping to run phase 1 of my layout to about 150 feet in length, most of it 18 inches wide. I have need of the wall space underneath the layout and hope to keep that area leg-free.
I have built two HO scale layouts on the 30x80 inch hollow core doors. The first was a 20 x 40 foot club layout, and then my home layout.
I built 2x4 framing with crossmembers in the center of each door and at the ends where the two doors abutt. I used metal framing brackets and drywall screws for frame assembly, and turned the 2x4s at the door joints flat so there was more surface for the screws.
I then glued two layers of 1/2 inch thick sound board on top of the doors using carpet adhesive.
This makes for a rock-solid layout that is strong enough to kneel on if you need to do so as you lay track and build scenery.
LOL. I came up with that screen name because I’m a UP fan from California but now live in CSX territory in Alabama. I still like the UP better but I’ll take trains wherever I can find them. The legs are the only downside to using the tables if you need the space underneath. If you were building regular benchwork, you actually end up with less legs using tables than if you built the normal way. With price of lumber, especially plywood, the tables are very cost effective. I’ve built layouts before with the normal bench work but the combination of the utility tables and two inches of foam glued on top has worked very well, especially since I was able to get the whole thing up in about two days versus two weeks or more for standard benchwork. The only thing it wouldn’t work for is a modeler that wanted a lot of deep canyons. Otherwise, I’ve been very pleased with how well things have gone and how strong the structure is.
!50 feet long by 18 inches should make a really interesting railroad. I’ll be waiting to see with that you’ve come up with for a track plan.
They are usually made of 2 layers of 3/32" plywood sandwiching a 1x2" perimeter frame with a wider block glued in place where the door knob would go. The center area has an egg-crate of cardboard glued in place for stiffness between the two skins. About the only fasteners that will hold in the 3/32" skin would be hollow wall anchors and they WILL NOT take a lot of strain.
Otherwise, they are both light weight and quite stable. I built my wife 4 show tables with folding legs that held up to numerous art shows for about 8 years once I dealt with the screws in the thin skin problem.
Just wanted to say “thank you” for everyone who’ve contributed to this thread. This is something I’ve been interested in as well, and the wealth of information is very welcome. Thanks.
A splice plate underneath end to end door joints would be screwed into the solid wood frame of the hollow core door, not into the plywood skin. You can fins the solid wood inside the door by tapping, or test drilling small holes, which can be filled with a variety of spackling compounds, caulks or glues.
If you need more cantilever rigidity, extend the splice plate further beneath each door abutting the joint, and screw into the side rails inside each door along the edge.
I wouldn’t count on a 1x2 or 2x2 exactly fitting inside the door if you need to replace a rail or add strength. You’ll probably have to measure and rip stock to fit. A skillsaw should do the trick, minor wobbles won’t hurt, since you’re going to terraform the door anyway, put the flattest side of the rip up to maintain a flat base for trackwork.
A table saw would do the job very well. I have a 10" Ryobi I got on sale for $80, on the recommendations of one of the best cabinetmakers I know. He does custom kitchens on million dollar homes and uses it for dadoes. The steel legged table that comes with this saw, plus a nice piece of 3/4 plywood, makes a fine work table that’s easily worth $50 by itself, making the table saw mostly a bonus. It’s not going to replace a high end Jet table saw, or even a DeWalt beater, but for rough ripping it’s still a nice deal. I’ve ripped three inch thick poplar glu-lams with mine, it took some time but made nice 1/8 inch slabs, planer ready, no problem.
The layout Im referring to is in the Dream-Plan-Build Realistic Layout operations. Also there is a Kalmbach Book called Model Railroads Step By Step written by David Popp who happens to be part of the MR Crew.
One thought that just struck me is an idea to mount items like tortise switch machines. Use liquid nails to glue a block to the bottom of the top skin after cutting the hole in the bottom skin. The you would have plenty of stock for using screws to mount it.
Hollow core doors work really well, but you can mix and match as I have.
When you want a deeper ravine you just seperate them with some girdered benchwork.
I have some of my doors that I placed ceiling tile on them, to quiet them and they became my yards. I have others where they are covered with pink foam so that I can contour the topography better.
They also cut well if you want them narrower, but remember that bi-fold closet doors work well too, and they come in a variety of widths.
But the thing I want you all to remember is “DON"T BUY THEM NEW” Go to your local “RE-STORE” Store. (Habitat for humanity) or a used building supplier and buy used ones. There is a very wide selection.
When I made the descion to use them I got nine of them for $90.00. You might even do better if there is a few holes in them and you wouldn’t want to use them in your home construction, but for MRing they would be just fine.
Us MRers have to stretch the bucks so we can buy those new sound equipped locos. RIGHT ??
I have found that the doors with ceiling tile on them seem to be quieter than the ones with foam board. Although they aren’t too bad either.
B&M, Jeffers made a good point in explaining that splice plates used anywhere along the EDGE of the doors will be screwed into solid wood, not just the luan (its really not even plywood) skin. I apologize for the assumed knowledge in leaving that clarification out of my original post.
Your photos show clearly how you intend to support the layout. With all respect, it looks a bit dicey to me in terms of both stability and leveling … but I’m not there, and you are.
the plastic table idea is interesting, but I’m hoping to run phase 1 of my layout to about 150 feet in length, most of it 18 inches wide. I have need of the wall space underneath the layout and hope to keep that area leg-free.
The legs are the only downside to using the tables if you need the space underneath. If you were building regular benchwork, you actually end up with less legs using tables than if you built the normal way. With price of lumber, especially plywood, the tables are very cost effective. I’ve built layouts before with the normal bench work but the combination of the utility tables and two inches of foam glued on top has worked very well, especially since I was able to get the whole thing up in about two days versus two weeks or more for standard benchwork. The only thing it wouldn’t work for is a modeler that wanted a lot of deep canyons. Otherwise, I’ve been very pleased with how well things have gone and how strong the structure is.