It ain’t necessarily so! I’ve been using 1960-era Katsumi rocksmasher twin coils, some of which have been in more-or-less continuous service since 1980, and I’ve yet to have a failure.
Tell me, O Tortoise gurus, how do you control a polarity-dependent machine from three different locations without resorting to some Rube Goldberg circuitry? With solenoids, it’s a non-issue.
As an added bonus, the KTM’s have 3PDT contacts. I have been known to link one to both sets of points of a crossover (live frogs, with indicator lights.) Not only do they have the OOMPH to power the mechanicals, they also have enough built-in contacts to handle the electricals.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - analog DC, MZL, twin-coil switch machines)
A single Tortise switch motor can throw a turnout from multiple locations by using DPDT switches “ganged together”.
The July 2002 issue of Model Railroader has a good discription of how to do this on page 74. The article has a very good illustration figure showing how to accomplish this wiring, including using bipolar or multiple red/green diodes for control panel “feedback”.
[#ditto] to ShortCircuit’s answer about wiring for multiple controls. I only need it a couple of places, but 'ol Rube would be sorely disappointed! And for those who use C/MRI to throw turnouts, including Tortoises, it’s also a non-issue.
And yes, it’s true, the Tortoise has “only” 2 sets of SPDT contacts. But I use power routing and dwarf signal indicators (often 3 per turnout) without extra relays or “oomph” (whatever that means).
Add the prototypical slow motion (I use 9v to make them a bit slower than 12v), and the positive pressure to hold the points firmly closed, and t
The Hare is insanely overpriced, and doesn’t really feed back anything. It just has contacts on it that can be connected to some sort of feedback device like the Lenz unit you mentioned - or NCE’s, or one of the many made for Digitrax.
I’ll still put Digitrax ahead of all the others for one reason - Loconet. The polled serial busses on NCE and Lenz will never be able to handle the volume of data that Loconet can. This is a big reason why users of those systems use C/MRI for their control and signalling system. The parts just aren’t available to do it all using the single DCC bus. Note too that those systems all use two busses just to connect the DCC system tog
Lots of options is what I said; George said ONLY. You made my point Randy, thank you.
Now you say Digitraxx is best. Perhaps? I don’t know. All I can tell you is that I owned a Lenz Set 100 and a Super Chief. I sold the Super Chief and purchased a second Lenz Set 100. This is a religious debate that I’ll pass on.
Best to all,
Daddy,
PS,
I do like the latex caulk Randy! Thanks for that tip.
I don’t know what Rube Goldberg means, and not that I ma a tortoise “fan” (In fact in my earlier post I used the term “stall motor”, but the standard multiple control method for stall motors is multiple DPDT. Can’t get much simpler than that.
But on another note. After extensive tests last summer our club determine that the stall motors don’t need continual power to work properly. We operated over some tortoise powered turnouts for several months without applying power to them just to see how long they would stay in position. None, repeat none, of the test units relaxed enough to cause any sort of problem. As such, our new electrical standard is written such that we will be controlling them with momentary contact switches, one wire from each switch to each turnout motor. There can be multiple switches controlling each turnout.
P.S. Edit - This was also a blind test. Most of the operators did not even know the turnout motors were dead. We didn’t want people ignoring, inventing, or imagining problems.
I believe they have some form of geared drive inside, possibly a worm gear. Thus you should be able to remove the power and they would stay (assuming the gearing ratio was high enough). I may take one apart just out of curiosity.
There’s a LOT of gears inside a Tortoise. I have one guinea pig I’ve taken apart just to see. If you do remember there is a 5th screw holding the case together, it’s under the middle of the label. And remember if you open it up the warranty is voided.
I am helping a friend with the electrical work on his layout, and he is using ordinary momentay pushbuttons with his Tortoises. Yes, you have to hold the button down until it throws all the way, but there is plenty of resistence in the Tortoise to keep the points held over when the power is removed. He is using N scale, handlaid turnouts with the point rails firmly soldered to PC ties at the heel, the only reason it’s flexible at all is he is using Code 40 rail. Since he is using the same kind of control you would use with twin-coil motors, you can add as many buttons in parallel as you liek to operate a turnout from multiple locations, although his layout is walkaround style and so the only controls are right in front of the turnout in question.
Randy, can you use a Facia mounted switch AND a DS52 or DS54? This was brought up at the operation session. The layou is to complicated to remeber which main line switch is what number for some.
I use the CTC for the mains and DPDT for all the other turnouts so that the road engineer and the yard folks have something to throw. Also have Ground throws in some areas next to the facia.
I just read the Digitrax (one x Joe) DS52/4 detailed specifications on their website and did not find any mention of feedback. The DS52/4 seems to function exactly like the Lenz LS150, both throwing a turnout on command. Neither gets any ‘signal’ back from the turnout, the DCC system and any CTC system knowing only the last ‘command out’ sent to the DCC system by either a throttle or CTC software.
To make a CTC panel respond to the actual turnout position can only be ‘sensed or learned’ from a sensor/contact on the turnout that is returned to the CTC panel via a Digitrax BD4/168 or SE8C or a Lenz LR101.
Please let me know where I have been incorrect in any of my statements here.
I am seeking to understand these points with extreme clarity.
The DS54 and DS64 both have additional inputs that can be used to feed back turnout status - or use one input for position status and one for a local control pushbutton. The DS52 is a simple stationary decoder and does not have any inputs. Digitrax also has one huge advantage that Lenz and NCE do not have - the computer interface will ‘see’ all commands from the throttles as well as dtaa from any input devices you might have. What this means is - I have one of my turnouts hooked up to an NCE SwitchIt stationary decoder. On my computer with JMRI I drew up a simple CTC panel with a lever that operates the turnout and some ‘lights’ that show the turnout position. WHen I click the lever ont he computer panel, it operates the turnout. When I pick the switch address on my throttle and operate the turnout - it ALSO updates the panel, so the indicators on the panel always shows the actual position (assuming the Tortoise didn’t break - and I’ve NEVER seen one break, even among the 100+ at the club I used to belong to). With Lenz and NCE you NEED feedback if you want to see proper status updates when a stationary decoder is operated from the throttle.
Oh yeah, one other Digitrax product, the DS44 - also a simple stationary decoder with no feedback. So you have the DS44/DS52 with no feedack, simple outputs like the Lenz LS150. ANd the DS54 and DS64, which 4 outputs and 8 inputs. The DS54 is actually kind of a kitchen sink device - which makes programming it a bit complex without the help of JMRI, but you can make it do pretty much anything, such as control back and forth animations. That’s the reason for the DS64, the DS64 is simplified so if you are just doing turnout control it’s a lot easier to use and program.
Not really with DPDT switches - that’s why my friend went with pushbuttons. He plans to use Lenz LS150’s, but with the pushbuttons he can wire the decoder in parallel with the buttons. I still think this might have potential for damage since power can get fed back into the LS150 when the manual buttons are used. If you want manual control and decoder control you need something a bit more complex than a DS44. Either DS64’s, or NCE SwitchIts will allow you to have local pushbuttons as well as control from the CTC panel.
My system is going to be a bit more complex, but not really in the wiring. My panel buttons will provide input via LocoIO boards. In JMRI I have a panel with the switch lever and an Off Power Button. Each actual turnout on the layout is a route in JMRI. Triggered by the switch input from the LocoIO - it generates commands like Switch Address 01 Thrown or Closed. The Off Power button is an internal sensor in JMRI that overrides the route - normally used for the block sensor under an interlocking so you can’t throw the turnouts while a train is standing on them. If the route is overridden, you can push panel buttons til you are blue inthe face and nothign will happen. When the dispatcher clicks the Off Power button, now the local control is enabled and panel buttons work. The actual turnout decoders will be at addresses in the upper end - the ones that cannot be controlled from a DT400 throttle, so no one can cheat. A smple script in JMRI will enable ALL local buttons with one click for when I want to o
Randy I wish I understood that part of the hobby as well as you. JMRI is great, wheich release are you running?
I am using DS52’s and of course have to got and RESET the turnouts so that the CTC is up to date. I am looking T getting more and from waht you ahve said the BD64 is the way to go. I am using the DS44 to move a storage door and other sutomation using a tortoise. (bought to many so I am using the spares for this job. As og=f Saturday, 2/3/2007 ALL of the Atlas #66 undertable units have failed.
I’m still using 1.7.5, a special copy Bob sent me directly to fix the bug. I tried posting a question askign if this had been rolled into the general release (since I can’t imagine anyone EVER wanting it to work like it did prior to the fix - basically, it did not work at all! The terminology used is a ‘veto sensor’ which is supposed to ‘veto’ the activation of a route if the condition is not met. It was non-funcitonal - no matter whay you put in as a condition, the route always triggered. This is what Bob fixed. However, when I posted my question in the JMRI group, the very next reply someone asked some stuff about the KAM lawsuit - how they got that from my message I have no idea, and I never did get a reply. So I haven’t tried 1.7.6 yet.
Wow - EVERY #66 has failed? Burned out, or what? That’s pretty scary.I didn’t think the Atlas HO stuff was quite as touchy - when I was in N scale I burned out tons of the tiny Atlas switch motors until I put in a CD power supply. I guess that’s the modern Made in China stuff - I have some old Atlas and Tyco switch motors that are nearly 40 years old that still work, and they survived me as a child operating them on our old layouts. But then, they are HUGE compared to modern stuff.
Randy, I use the DS52 to drive them so that there is a CD inuse. The 1st one just died, nothing could make it move. The next (2) they would not HOLD the points when anything big and heavy came thru. The Big Boy would shake the points then a trailing car would pick them.
The straw that broke the camels back was the failure of there internal dpdt for the indicator lights. One LOCKED on green even though the points moved (no short found) the other which was powering the frog LOCKED in the thrown position and would not change. This is low voltage for the lights and such with normal track DCC voltage to the points.
If you think about the design it is a common slide that moves the contatcs, well the contacts welded them selves or stuck or? inside the unit. I am having to build remote locations for the tortoise to handle these turnouts since ther is no room for a normal mounting in thst area.
I have FINALY gotten all the mallets I wanted so I now have at least one of everyone made, all DCC and all sound. I am going to try a lok sound in an Spectrum MOuntion since it is a plug in board. On the Spectrum, are you just cutting the caps or junking the whole thing and hard wiring?
Just came back to see what kind of firestorm my reference to, “Tortoise gurus,” would raise.
Since I control my solenoid machines with a hot probe (look, Ma, no panel switches!) mutiple, ganged DPDTs comes under my definition of, “Rube Goldberg circuitry.”
(For the benefit of those unfamiliar with Rube Goldberg, he was a satirical cartoonist with, IIRC, the New York Journal American, noted for creating wierd, wacky devices that depended on unusual events to perform mundane tasks.)
Actually, Texas Zepher has given me an idea that could be the ultimate in circuit simplification. If you only power a Tortoise when it’s moving, you can use an AC hot probe. Install diodes behind the contact studs in the panel track schematic, then connect them to a single wire that can be routed to all the other remote operation sites en route to the Tortoise. The diode rectifies the probe’s AC into half-wave DC, polarity determined by the mounting of the diode.
Now for the REAL kicker! The same system can power twin coil machines! All I have to do is put diodes in series with the coils to split power from the one ‘hot’ feeder wire to the appropriate coil. That takes connections down to ONE wire from the Main CTC panel, to the Zone panel, to the Local micropanel - plus a return bus that connects all of the switch machines back to the power transformer. The saving in wire will probably exceed the cost of the diodes. As for the saving in circuit complexity - priceless! THANK YOU, TEXAS ZEPHER!!! [bow][bow][tup]
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - with 1964 electrical technology)
Diodes are cheap - Tortoises draw such lower power you can use the little ones, you don’t need 1, 2, or 4 amp versions. Now for those power hog solenoid machines… [:D]
If you like the wacky inventions of Rube Goldberg, try to find a copy of the various The Incredible Machine games from Sierra. They’re quite old but there may be a more modern release that will run with newer computers. I know the actually first ones will NOT run under XP or 2000. You basically are presented with a problem to solve and a series of Rube Golberg-like components, your job is to combine them into a machine to solve the problem presented. TONS of fun - cover your train layout before starting because you’ll get hooked and work will lapse on the railroad for the duration.