Hi everyone,
I recently picked up a set of Lionel 2023 Alco locomotives that have seen very little use. I cleaned the brushes and armature and lubricated the axles with a light machine oil. They run great, with one exception-the pickup rollers get quite a bit hotter on these 2023s than they do on my 2025 steam set, running about the same speed and duration of time.
Is this normal for these 2023s? I realize that there is a gearing difference in the steam loco and the diesel.
If anyone has an opinion, I would welcome it.
Thanks! Steve
Excessive heat on the rollers is usually caused by excessive current being drawn through the locomotive. Clean the wheels, rollers and track with naptha (lighter fluid). Spray some contact cleaner in the rollers where they spin on the rivet to get out any dirt also. Make sure the top and bottom armature bearings are oiled. You may want to disassemble the trucks, clean out any old grease, and relubricate the gears. After a complete teardown, cleaning and lubrication, the loco should run better, and the rollers should not get hot.
Larry
Assuming for a moment that you don’t have an issue of drawing excessive current, consider other causes.
Another common cause for hot rollers is poor contact between the roller and the axle it rides on. I’ve seen this on several locomotives. I use Deoxit-D5 to improve the contact, then rotate the roller with a Dremel brush to help clean the connection area. I’ve had rollers hot enough to start the lubricating oil smoking, usually this will fix them. If that doesn’t work, it’s probably time for new rollers.
Thank you for your response. Are the trucks fairly simple to disassemble? What type of grease would you lubricate the gears with after they are cleaned? Is lithium grease OK?
Thank you!
Steve
Here’s a link to the 2023 Lionel Service Manual that should give you some insights. I wasn’t suggesting disassembling as a first step.
I see that this locomotive has a worm gear drive. Will the armature assembly along with the worm gear shaft simply pull out of the motor housing if the brush plate is removed? I assume that there will be some old grease on the worm gear shaft that should be cleaned off.
Is there a grease specifically made for model trains that I should look for? Also, what should I use as a degreaser?
Thank you!
Steve
There’s plenty of appropriate lubricants for model trains. For the worm gear I use white lithium grease, for the other gears I use 10-30 motor oil.
Again, I think I’d first lube everything, and next maybe try the Deoxit-D5 I mentioned on the rollers.
Have you tried measuring the current required by the locomotive as it runs? I use one of these around the train layout to measure current easily. Clamp-On Ammeter
I recommend using motor oil for all lube needs. It is cheap and never dries out or gets gummy. To disassemble the powered truck, you need to remove the screw on the bottom of the truck. Then lube everything that turns and lube all the gears. Most greases, light machine oils, 3 in 1 oil, Lionel Lube, WD-40, etc., will dry out and get hard or get gummy. I have 50 years or more of experience with motor oil, and it never dries out or gets gummy.
I use motor oil to lube the pickup rollers and the commutator. There are some that have an opinion that this will not work, but years of experience has shown that it works just fine. I also lube the rollers inside the transformers and lube the whistle control mechanism (Type V, Type Z, ZW, KW).
I have no idea how corrosion could occur inside a pickup roller. It is turning all the time and should polish off any corrosion.
Hey guys,
Thanks for all of your help. I sprayed the rollers and pins out with Deoxit. I polished the rollers with a polishing wheel. I cleaned the track and the wheels with naptha. I removed the truck from the motor, degreased the worm gear, also degreased and cleaned the bronze drive gear in the truck. I cleaned and lubed the 3 bronze gears on the side on the truck. I also cleaned the armature and brushes for a second time. I lubricated the worm gear with a slight bit of lithium grease.
After reassembly, the loco set took off on the track with very little power, and ran much better than before. I measured the voltage on the track while they were running at a very good clip, with no cars, and the voltage was 8.60 volts. After 20-25 minutes I stopped them and felt of the rollers, and they were still pretty warm, but not as hot as before. The drive truck was also warm, not as hot as the other night.
Does anyone have any other ideas?
Thanks for all of the help so far!
Steve
I would consider after 20-25 minutes that is normal. All electric motors produce heat when operating. Moving parts create friction and heat. If the motor was overheating, It would start slowing down. I don’t have anything like what you are running but my old steam engines get pretty warm after 15-20 minutes.
Cleaning all the old grease and oil was a good thing to do. That old gummy grease causes the causes the motor to work harder. I had a 44 Marine rocket launcher. It was a finicky runner. Ceaning all that old grease and oil out of the motor brought it back to life.
That’s probably as good as it gets. The rollers will get warm, when they are getting too hot to touch, that’s when you need to look into remedial measures.
While you were at it, did you also oil the axles and other bearings like the motor bearings?
Hey Servoguy,
I oiled the axles and also applied oil to the opening in the top of the brushplate marked “oil”. Please let me know if there is any other areas that need lubrication.
Thanks very much!
Steve
Did you pull the armature and lube the worm gear and it’s mating spur gear? That should be done if it hasn’t been done already.
I did not pull the armature out the motor–I did not know how it came out, and did not want to force it.
I cleaned the worm gear when I removed the truck, and I also cleaned and lubed the bronze gear on the inside of the truck.
Please let me know if there is anything else that should be lubed.
Thanks! Steve
The motor has a lower bearing that also needs oil. It sounds like you missed.it. If you take the brush plate off of the motor, the armature will come out easily. There are also thrust bearings top and bottom inside the motor.
Does the armature simply pull out of the motor? Are the thrust bearings made of a bronze colored metal, so they will be easy to identify?
Thanks again!
Steve
The thrust bearings are just washers, and are easy to lose, so be careful. The armature just pulls out of the motor. One thrust bearing (washer) is on the top of the armature, the other on the bottom. I have a 2023, and I could take it apart to help you if necessary.
Here is a page from the service manual to show you the motor and bearings. Looks like there is a retaining ring holding the armature in place.
Larry