Another item of interest to discuss is Canada’s strategic direction to take advantage of Global Warming and develop Hudson Bay as a new trade route to Europe. At some point this will impact US rail traffic to my guess is…Winnipeg, Manitoba? I think this is where the connection northwards to Hudson Bay is. So I thought I would start another thread on this item.
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Reddit Discussion and Comments:
Question. Would the line north from Toronto to Moosonee be another possible route? Don’t know if that area is suited for a port.
Moosonee is on the Moose River which in satellite view appears to be a braided river which indicates a sediment choked river.
I believe Port Nelson has been mentioned as an alternative to Churchill. Though like Moosonee is a Fly/Sail in only location. I really think Churchill will be a go. Our Government has already piled a ton of money into that rail line thru various handouts over the decades surly we must own it by now. LOL
Also the Premier of Manitoba has offered up a transportation corridor (power, road, rail, pipeline ect.) thru the Province to the country running up to the border with the territories. For when the feds decide where exactly to place a new Arctic defence base. (There is finally a big political and public interest in this. Particularly with all of the 51st state / economic warfare talk these days.
This corridor would go past Churchill. This all is logical as building across the muskeg is extremely problematic. And the existing rail line would assist with this.
Forgive me if I seem obtuse, but I thought the point of Churchill was access to the Arctic Bridge, to Russia, not anything remotely optimized for container bridge (across Russian or Chinese possessions) to “Europe”. And the references I see are ‘near’ the Northwest Passage routes opening up since 2007… is there a practical all-season connection north from logical USA (read CNIC or CPKC?) border crossing to access that route?
If we take any of the planning for proper container-bridge on the Isthmus of Tehuantepec Railway as a guide, you would not run this anywhere near ‘grade’ over the muskeg (or the flood-prone regions that were so disastrous a few years ago!) and you would build it at least double-track. This promptly reminded me of the deep support techniques used to assure alignment of the Alaska Pipeline in areas with inadequate permafrost foundation assurance…
If you’re going to Russia, a nearly-all-rail solution through the Yukon might still make better sense. But either of these schemes reminds me of the First Law of Consulting (aka the Hobson-Ellsworth law; ‘the best solution may not necessarily be a good solution’)
Currently, a lot of Canadian grain ends up going through the US at some point, so it can be shipped overseas. One major reason for the line upgrade is so this grain can now just go thru Canada, bypassing the US and the connected expenses / tariffs etc.
A lot of Canadian grain is shipped from the lakehead at Thunder Bay, either on Canadian lakers or Canadian oceangoing vessels (often Fednav).
That is true, but Thunder Bay is on Lake Superior, and we are discussing Hudson Bay which is a very different thing. A difficult route further north, and then a long sail before you can turn southeast – assuming it’s ice-free in the Hudson Strait, too – to establish a great circle to Europe in the North Atlantic.
Obviously a railroad to ‘Moosonee’ would not terminate there at the river, but would extend to deepwater facilities below Akimiski in the lower extension of Hudson Bay
I understand. I was merely saying that there really isn’t a reason to build all the infrastructure in Churchill when it’s already in Thunder Bay.
But the discussion involves transfer through the Northeast Passage(s) or out the Hudson Strait past the tip of Greenland – not an interlake trip that will have to negotiate the Seaway.
The person I was responding to said it was an alternative to shipping through US ports. I was merely replying that they had a ready-made viable alternative already. Churchill’s population is less than 1000. It’s not the nicest place to live.
My understanding is that there was some Canadian law or order that specified a certain amount of grain had to be shipped thru Churchill. About the time CN sold the line the order was rescinded, and that grain started moving thru Montreal.
Port Nelson was the original goal of the Hudson Bay line. You can see this on a map by the way the line points northwest toward Port Nelson, but then takes a dog-leg north toward Churchill. Port Nelson (like Moosonee) was on a silty river that required a long pier and constant dredging.
The problems with Thunder Bay is that the Soo Canal is closed for a couple of months in the winter, and the St. Lawrence Seaway I believe is closed even longer. Also the Seaway and Welland Canal locks limit the size of the boats that can use it.
Grain is just one example.
If you’re sending something by rail from British Columbia - like say containers from China - to Toronto, much of the traffic goes from BC to Winnipeg, Winnipeg to Twin Cities, Twin Cities to Chicago, Chicago to Detroit/Windsor, and from Windsor to Toronto. It can also go from the Twin Cities to Sault Ste. Marie, and then across Ontario, or Winnipeg-Duluth/Superior to the Soo. Relatively little of it takes the all-Canada route north of Lake Superior, which is basically hundreds of miles of rocky terrain with no towns or cities to speak of.
The other side, things coming in from the Atlantic ports of Canada, often go through New England to get to Ontario or Quebec.
What the Canadians are trying to do, largely as a response to Trump’s tariffs, is create a route that completely bypasses the US, whether the goods are coming from - or going to - Asia or Europe. That way, Canadian railroads get paid for the entire journey, and it avoids the tariffs and the governmental hassles of going Canada - US - Canada.
Wow thats interesting to know that they have that much traffic that avoids the north shore of Lake Superior. There are two main lines thru there both CN and CPKC have one. I can admit the CP line is pretty slow around the lake shore as i took it some 50 years ago it was a nice journey though.
Im actually a little surprised by this and tried to do a bit of searching on this but my google skills are not up to par i guess. All i could find around this is that in may of 2025 over 32,000,000 tons of freight was shipped on Canadian rail lines but that only 3,600,000 tons were imported from the US i don’t know how that goes when it comes to customs and border services. Could it all be under customs seal an not subject to all the dutys, tariffs and such? So it dosent show up in these figures as it remained under Canadian control during the process of crossing the border a couple times.
I think your correct about Churchill being the Rideau Canal of this century.
This just came out yesterday.
I don’t want to jump too far into the political side here or take the thread off on a unrelated tangent. However, it bears mentioning, it has long been a strategic objective of the United States to make Canada more independent of the United States in all areas. Concern was in WWII the Germans could sabotage US infrastructure and it would be a two-fer, impacting both US and Canada. At that time, Mexico was not really part of the war effort nor was Mexico as developed.
Having said that, I have no clue if that was the ultimate aim of the current political administration or it just accidently aligned.
I don’t look at recent Canadian moves to be more independent as a bad thing, it is just more efficient and secure for both countries. Canada is a much stronger country the more independent it becomes and the U.S. benefits from that as well.
You can see from the below video link there were past attempts to sabotage Horseshoe Curve and other infrastructure items during WWII.
I think the geopolitical moves the current administration has been taking are strategic thinking ahead moves to preclude our major enemies from gaining control of key resources that can fuel aggressive actions, be it massive Venezuelan oil reserves, Greenland minerals, or cargo shipping lanes.
While US Merchant Marine is not robust, it still exists.