Sorry am new to this but I was looking at the MTH GS-4 post because am looking to get a MTH SP GS-6 and I just wanted to see if I under stood.
Now looking at what all had been said DCS stuff works on DCC layouts but you can not do as much fun stuff on the DCC as you could on a DCS layout with the same locomotive. And DCC locomotive don’t work on DCS layouts?
Ok so what can you not do on a DCC layout that you can do on the DCS layout? Would it be worth it to get the MTH with the DCS and run it on DCC? Do you still get all your bells and horns…ect sounds running it on the DCC? What can you not do and what do you lose?
At the risk of opening a very large can of worms or even Pandoras box I will attempt to answer your question. MTH is a late comer to the HO market long after DCC was decided upon as the control method of choice and an NMRA standard had been written around it to which all other manufacturers but MTH have adhered too. This means that nearly all of the other products are compatible. So you can use one company’s decoder with another manufacturers control system. MTH is the oddball. Folllowers of MTH will declare that the world should beat a path to the MTH door. Others will say that MTH should leave the market. there doesn’t apear to be many people in the middle. If that is the only engine you want then go for it. If not then you have a big decision to make. MTH has not been too successful in the HO Market and many of us believe they are a short timer in HO and will ventually leave the market. So far they have produced one PRR engine and one oddball triplex that only two small railroads had. That does not mean they will not support the few products they have out there. It does mean that if they throw in the towell you will have an oddball system with not many choices of engines to run on it. This is all opinion but you asked.
M.T.H. HO locomotives are equipped with both a DCC and a DCS decoder allowing users to operate the locomotives in three different manners; straight analog DC, via any DCC controller on the market or with M.T.H.'s DCS system (either the full blown DCS Remote System or the recently shipped DCS Commander).
So if you have a DCC controller, you can operate M.T.H. HO locomotives. There are 28 DCC features programmed into every M.T.H. HO locomotive compared to literally hundreds of features and sound effects/settings that are accessible via the DCS system. This doesn’t mean that you can’t enjoy an M.T.H. engine under DCC control, you just don’t have access to all the features. In many cases, those features that you don’t have access to simply can’t be configured for the less robust DCC standard. This isn’t a flaw with DCC, but rather an indication that DCC is based on older technology that simply can’t operate all of the features we’ve developed just like older computers can’t run the latest computer software - they aren’t powerful enough.
M.T.H.‘s goal when producing our locomotives was to provide all users, regardless of what they use to run their railroad, with a locomotive they could operate and enjoy. To date, we’ve released three steam engines; a Pennsylvania K-4 in two versions, a Erie Triplex and a Southern Pacific Gs4. We’ll be shipping an additional five versions of the Gs4 paint scheme and three versions of a Gs6 in June. In July we’ll be announcing our next HO steam engine which will ship to retailers at the end of the summer. We’ll also be shipping our 60’ flat car at summer’s end and announcing another new HO locomotive for delivery at the end of the year.
M.T.H. is committed to our HO product line and will be producing more and more products over the coming years, each infused with our technology package that we believe is appealing to any HO operator,
M.T.H. HO locomotives are equipped with both a DCC and a DCS decoder allowing users to operate the locomotives in three different manners; straight analog DC, via any DCC controller on the market or with M.T.H.'s DCS system (either the full blown DCS Remote System or the recently shipped DCS Commander).
So if you have a DCC controller, you can operate M.T.H. HO locomotives. There are 28 DCC features programmed into every M.T.H. HO locomotive compared to literally hundreds of features and sound effects/settings that are accessible via the DCS system. This doesn’t mean that you can’t enjoy an M.T.H. engine under DCC control, you just don’t have access to all the features. In many cases, those features that you don’t have access to simply can’t be configured for the less robust DCC standard. This isn’t a flaw with DCC, but rather an indication that DCC is based on older technology that simply can’t operate all of the features we’ve developed just like older computers can’t run the latest computer software - they aren’t powerful enough.
M.T.H.‘s goal when producing our locomotives was to provide all users, regardless of what they use to run their railroad, with a locomotive they could operate and enjoy. To date, we’ve released three steam engines; a Pennsylvania K-4 in two versions, a Erie Triplex and a Southern Pacific Gs4. We’ll be shipping an additional five versions of the Gs4 paint scheme and three versions of a Gs6 in June. In July we’ll be announcing our next HO steam engine which will ship to retailers at the end of the summer. We’ll also be shipping our 60’ flat car at summer’s end and announcing another new HO locomotive for delivery at the end of the year.
M.T.H. is committed to our HO product line and will be producing more and more products over the coming years, each infused with our technology package that we believe is appea
DCC is a standard, or a set of standards, specified by the NMRA in conjunction with its European counterpart MOROP. Its specifications ensure that decoder equipped locomotives will be controllable on any brand of DCC command system. The two major vendors of O scale, Lionel and MTH have opted to build their own proprietary digital control systems. Of the two, the DCS system by MTH is designed to be compatible with, and a superset of DCC. This means that you can run DCC decoder equipped locos on DCS, but when running DCS locos on DCC you cannot access all of the available functions. Lionel’s first digital command system was Train Master Command Control TMCC, and has now been superceded by their Legacy system. I have not heard that it is comaptible with any other digital control systems, but O scale isn’t my primary scale and I don’t have either a DCS or a Lionel digital command system… although I do have one O scale loco equipped with TMCC which I can only run in DC.
Thanks a lot that help me a lot, looks like all the stuff I was wanting do get you do. ButI was wondering about some of the settings, some place I saw it say that the Chuffing is synced to the wheels moving and so is the smoke also synced to? and if it is when you slip do you get the sound and reaction from the stack? And how’s it know that your drifting or working up a grade? But I think am just going to have to get one and find out how it will do.
Is that really true? It was my understanding that you could operate a DCS decoder on a DCC layout (with limitations) but not a DCC decoder on a DCS layout. Are you speaking strictly in reference to O-scale and not necessarily other scales?
This is definitly not the case. DCC sends its commands by modulating AC current. DCS sends it’s commands using 10.7 MHz radio over the wires and rails. Thus, DCC decoders cannot receive DCS commands. The MTH HO engines have dual mode decoders that can detect either type of communications.
Hi SP4460,
Yes, the smoke puffing is synced to the chuffing sounds. If the drivers slip the smoke and chuffing will speed up accordingly.
The MTH electronics use an optical sensor on the motor flywheel to calculate speed. When you set the speed with your cab the electronics will adjust the power to the motor to maintain that speed regardless of load or grade. When the electronics have to supply a lot of power or very little for a given speed they will automatically adjust the sound to labored or drifting chuff.
Here’s a list of the available DCC functions on all MTH engines:
Thanks Dave for helping clear some of that up for me.
So basically what you will get with a Running the DCS locomotive on the DCC layout you just get the DCC stander operations like what a Broadway Limited would do, and that is fine for me. But some place it said you can not change the speed of the loco on a DCC layout, but is it not already set for smph as its default setting? And if you go to a DCS layout and change the setting to how you want them, say the speed or what ever will it save it in the chip and carry it over to the DCC, or will it just not read that command? Dose it come with both DCC and DCS chip in it or dose the DCS chip cover both (am guessing it dose cover both)
Thanks for being patient and answering my questions, And as a thanks here is one of my Pic’s of the 4449[:D]
Correct. You cannot remap the speed with either DCC or DCS, but it comes mapped from the factory for 1 step=1 smph.
Changes made under DCS will be retained in DCC. This includes adjustments to whistle, bell, engine, or accent volumes and other sounds. But, as I just said, the speed map cannot be changed in either system.
The one decoder reads both systems.
Since we’re sharing photos of #4449 here are a few if mine[:)].
a lot of those extra features I can do without, and sound makers can fiddel with controls to get a desired effect without all the added stuff.
Crew sounds I can do without, thats sounds like something that comes from the Lionel toy thingy stuff.
I have tinkered with smoke and my end decision is I can do without it.
If they continue a practice of doing unique engines and one model grabs my intrerest I may go for an MTH engine, the Triplex almost got me but its Erie only. No, Virginian didnt have the exact engine.
If they come out with a N&W Jawn Henry I may go for it…
from what i can see personally about MTH the ho scale engines that i did see do look like they are made of good materials and all of those extra features may be boring if MTH did release a less expensive C&O steam turbine #500 i would buy it in a heart beat but the problem is the rollingstock mainly from the UP roster while searching MTH website and comparing their photos with UP photos on different tenders used in the turbine area and in the 1990’s the less common tenders are completely wrong i do not think they do a lot of research when they release a rollingstock for example if you ever see a photo of UP tenders UPT1 through UPT8 they are custom made tank tenders by UP and are not average size when you look at the same tender from MTH it looks like all they did was paint a 40foot single dome tank car in UP yellow and put on decals which is way off as far as historically correctness goes which is not good for proto type modeling and the only UP tender i have seen them get right out of the 9 different tenders is the stainless steel propane tender and the turbine tenders currently used on the steam excursion
You are right about DCC locos not running on DCS layouts. I was confused by some of the documentation. Apparently the DCS Commander product will work in conjunction with a DCC system, not in lieu of one.
I don’t think that scale would matter, although the three-rail AC vs. two-rail DC in O scale does muddy the waters a bit. I’ve read that you can run three-rail AC locos on DCC if they are equipped with the proper decoders for their motors. But I don’t know of any three-railers who run DCC. I don’t have actual statistics, but Lionel’s TMCC seems to be the dominant system in three-rail O scale. I think I may run a survey on my site about O scale digital systems.
Hey Dave thanks once more for the info, and vary nice pic’s!
Here are some pic’s I was able to dig up of my trip with the 844 and 4449. My hard-drive died on my com and lost almost all of that trip’s pic’s [:(] this is all that is left.
If you did not know any better he was not having fun.
LOVE the photos! Now, I challenge ANY manufacturer to produce a model of either locomotive with prototype-accurate smoke and sound…
When somebody makes that first, chest-squeezing WHOOMPH sound like something other than an asthmatic Chihuahua, I might even buy it. As for smoke - my prototype steamers burned coal…
“There are 28 DCC features programmed into every M.T.H. HO locomotive compared to literally hundreds of features and sound effects/settings that are accessible via the DCS system.”
I am an O scaler (2 rail) and I am looking forward to MTH relasing locomotives like this in O scale. I’m trying to find out what the HO crowd thinks of them. For me, out of the hundreds of features DCS has that DCC does not only about 2 or 3 really interest me. Which isn’t enough for me to go out and convert all my locomotives over to MTH’s DCS. No offense to MTH intended.
Dave, thanks for your input. I have a question: Can the MTH engine be consisted with another engine from another company?
" But I don’t know of any three-railers who run DCC."
I believe there are actually two O scale 3 railers that I have heard of that run DCC. Personally I know almost a dozen O scale 2 railers running DCC.
I’ve installed DCC decoders into a couple of K-Line three-rail diesels for a buddy of mine who runs both his HO and his O gauge stuff on DCC. We put sound into one of them, too.
DCS is a proprietary digital system that MTH used with their ‘O’ gauge products, and NMRA turned down in favor of DCC .
MTH did not take their exclusion lying down, by suing, or threatening to sue everyone selling DCC, for ‘Patent Infringement’ - while extolling the virtues of their system.
This in no way passes judgent on their system - just in the way they went about it. Their locomotives work on DCC, ok - up to a point.
