If anyone here has seen the layout packs that you can download from Kalmbach, you may have seen one called High Speed in 6 by 12 Feet. If so, it features a number of different radius curves so that you can run modern engines and Lionel postwar on the same track, since the radius is larger than the standard 31 inches.
In any case, if any of you have seen the layout in question, I built it, but I am absolutely stuck on where the insulating pins go on the two pairs of 0-72 switches. There are two switches that are directly connected to each other on the end that each has one fiber pin. I asked my train dealer what he thought I should do to connect them and where the insulating pins should be in order to work correctly, and he had no idea.
This is the one weakness that I think these layouts have – they apparently assume that you’ll automatically know what to do. If anyone here has seen the layout, or are familiar with it and could take a look at it and tell me how to install the 0-72 switches so that they function correctly and separate the outer loop from the inner loop at the same time, I’d really appreciate it.
You’ll probably get more help for this on the Classic Toy Trains forums, but to isolate the inner and outer loops (I assume two transformaers are used?) you would normally put the fiber pin on the center rail. As I recall, the remote control Lionel turnouts have an anti-derail feature that flips it to match an oncomign train, that uses a fiber pin on one of the outside rails, so you may in fact need a fiber pin in all 3 rails at the joint between two sections like that.
I’m not a Lionel guy. But it appears to me from the instructions that the insulating pins come installed in the frog rails. I see nothing that suggest that they go anywhere else. Instructions are at the following link: http://www.lionel.com/media/servicedocuments/70-5165-250.pdf. See the section on installing the switch and the sketch on page 3.
The problem is this: Since both switches have those insulator pins in the same position, and since those positions are pointing directly at each other, one set of pins would have to be pulled, since two different objects can’t occupy the same space. Can you see my problem now?
If you think 0-72 switches are complicated, try 027 profile 042 Lionel switches. New and old most act like they are possessed. Run an engine over it and it goes wild switching back and forth creating a derailment. Open one up and see all the wires are white and probably miswired. Tired of it I disabled the electronic features in all of mine and have been buying K-line 42" switches.
You do need to put insulating pins in both outside rails. This will interrupt the connection between the outside rails of the two tracks; so you then need to restore that connection. You can do this in several ways:
Put a lockon (or use whatever means you prefer) on the disconnected track and run a wire from its outside rails to the transformer’s common terminal.
Put a lockon (or use whatever means you prefer) on the disconnected track and run a wire from its outside rails to the other track’s outside rails.
Run a wire between the common terminals of the two turnouts. I don’t know what turnouts you have, so I can’t tell you where those terminals are or whether you have them at all.
This is for Lionel O-72 switches. When putting to switches diverging route to diverging route. Remove the steel pin that wants to go in the same rail as a insulated pin. If too steel or two insulated pins are aligned on the same rail remove which ever you like. O-72 switches should have an insulating pin on the two inner rails . I hope this helps if not someone Will be along to help soon.
I see lionelsoni replied right before me. He must have viewed the track plan. What I said above is for the non-derail function to work. If I’m reading into this correctly you will need the insulated pins he is talking about in the outside rails also .
Just to be sure there’s no misunderstanding, let me say that, when I refer to “outside rails”, I’m talking about the rails that the wheels roll on, as opposed to the center rail that the locomotive’s pickup rolls on.
Some explanation of how the turnouts work and why the insulating pins are needed: Most of the outside rails of your layout are (or should be) connected together and to the common terminal of your transformer. However, on anti-derailing turnouts like yours and on some accessories, pieces of outside rail, called “control rails”, are insulated from the outside rails generally. This is done so that the train’s metal wheels act like an electrical switch, making a connection between the control rail that one wheel is on and the outside rail that the other wheel is on, to throw the turnout and prevent a derailment. When the control rail extends to the end of the turnout (some don’t), you need an insulating pin there to keep it from being permanently connected to the outside rail of the track that you connect to the turnout, which in this case is another turnout.
Since the control rails of the two turnouts are on opposite sides of the track where they connect, you need an insulating pin on both rails, leaving no way for the “real” outside rails to touch each other. That is why you need to do something extra to get them in touch with each other, like an extra wire around the turnouts.
(I haven’t seen the track plan nor the turnouts. But this problem comes up frequently with anti-derailing turnouts. If I’m not mistaken, the early, 1952 1122 turnouts avoided the problem by having the control rails completely within the turnout.)
It was the early 1122 turnouts that had the non-derailing feature completely within the turnout. No insulating pins were necessary with these turnouts.
OK, unfortunately you guys all know what you’re talking about, and I’m marginal at best. I’m adding a copy of the area in question to this post – just click on the link at the end of this post. Unfortunately it cut my writing off, except for the switch on the left, called Switch # 1. Just call the next three switches from left to right Switches # 2, 3, and 4.
My problem is this from reading “outside rails” – does that mean that I need an insulating pin on every outside rail on every switch? Do me a favor, just tell me: “On switch number 1, you need pins on all 4 outside rails,” etc., please, or whatever you’re trying to get through my thick head. Or, if you want, which would be REALLY cool, you could copy this picture, put an X on every spot that needs an insulating pin, and repost it. [:)]
I also am not clear on where to put the lockons and which rails to connect them to. Additionally, Switches 2 and 3 are presently fighting to maintain the same direction and will not let me set either of them to a different direction (straight, rather than turning off the main line to the smaller inside loop). The layout’s outer loop is presently insulated from the inner loop, so apparently I’ve done something right. The smaller switches, one of which is also directly connected to Switch # 3, are Lionel 022 switches. Right now I am using the pin in the side of the switch, not track voltage, and have them all connected together to the transformer (a ZW). I will be using two ZWs to power this layout, however, with one mostly dedicated to trains and one dedicated to switches and accessories.
The person who did this layout made it sound as though there was nothing unique about just plugging all these switch
Put insulating pins in both control rails of every turnout. This will include putting insulating pins in both outside rails where turnout 1 connects to turnout 2 and where turnout 3 connects to turnout 4. Here is a picture of an 022 turnout that shows where the control rails are: http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/cd/swt/stc022a.pdf . I have no information about your O72 turnouts; so you will have to find the control rails of the non-diverging path for yourself. They may or may not be the same as the 022s. Maybe someone else on the forum can tell us.
Connect all outside rails other than control rails to a common (U) terminal of the ZW transformer. If the insulating pins result in any track’s not getting track voltage, connect the outside rails of the dead track to a common (U) terminal of the ZW transformer.
To isolate blocks of track that you want to power separately, put an insulating pin in the center rail at the block boundaries. Do not run trains from a block powered by one transformer output into a block powered by another transformer output, especially if those outputs are from the same transformer. Instead arrange to switch both blocks to the same transformer output before crossing the boundary.
Do you have a real ZW transformer or the modern “transformer” with the same name?
The lockons will connect to the center rail and one outside rail wherever you put them. The outside rails will connect to each other through the metal ties (of tubular track), so it doesn’t matter which side of the track you attach the lockons.
These are 5165 and 5166. If these are what you have, it looks from the picture that the control rails are the short rails that meet in a “V” at the frog.
It doesn’t matter where the control rails are. With switches 1, 2, 3, 4 connected as shown, all the switches should have insulating pins in all 3 rails of the divergent (curved) path. This isolates the inner and outer loops and also provides proper isolation for the control rails.
Then, as Bob Nelson says, you have to separately power the inner and outer loops from the transformer. And you need to make sure that the U terminal of the ZW is connected to the outer rail of both the inner and outer loop. The outer rail is the rail that the wheels are on.
Then there is the issue of running a train from the inner loop to the outer loop (or vise-versa). A train should not cross an insulating pin in the center rail if the two center rails are powered from different transformers or different transformer taps. A discussion of this has been posted by Bob Nelson several times.
