Hi electroclove,
Any same type car could be substututed for any like car on the list at the link you provide. The first column is the most important on that list, since it list the order and type of car. Who owned it was of little importance and cars were freely substituted as needed.
Since this was a jointly-operated train, there was no need for ownership of individual to be of great concern. Depending on what type of car each of the ones you listed are, it could be substituted for any like type car, no matter which road owned it.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Are you looking to make a specific consist for a specific date? Reason is that the car types remained the same but the actual cars could change within the consist. That is, the Diner could be the CB&Q, D&RGW or the WP, and each of the RRs usually had more than one of that type of car. The CZ cars were bought by each RR based upon total mileage each contributed to the route, therefor the CB&Q had the most cars. Basically, if you need a baggage, diner, dome coach, 10-6 sleeper, 6-5 sleeper, observation car, etc, conceivably is could be from any of the 3 RRs. I’m pretty sure they didn’t try to keep all the same RRs cars in the same consist.
You could try the Yahoo passenger car group, someone may have data on the exact consist for various dates.
Mike, I understand that who owned the car is not importent. But can you please tell me what the CZ number means?
1968-1970 11-13 cars
Baggage
Coach (CZ23)
Vista Dome Coach (CZ22)
Vista Dome Coach (CZ21)
Vista Dome Coach (CZ20)
Vista Dome Buffet-Lounge
6-5 Sleeper (CZ19)
10-6 Sleeper (CZ18)
10-6 Sleeper (CZ16)
Diner
10-6 Sleeper (CZ15)
All Dbl. Room SLeeper (CZ14)
Dome Obs (CZ10)
Example: I’m looking at the Silver Saddle (CB&Q). Stock # at BLI is 536 (Availability). And if I look at BLI (Consist Information ) it seems to be a CZ 20, Vista Dome Car.
Does it mean that this car can only be used in the following position in the consist?
1968-1970 11-13 cars
Baggage
Coach (CZ23)
Vista Dome Coach (CZ22)
Vista Dome Coach (CZ21)
Vista Dome Coach (CZ20) *** Silver Saddle ***
Vista Dome Buffet-Lounge
6-5 Sleeper (CZ19)
10-6 Sleeper (CZ18)
10-6 Sleeper (CZ16)
Diner
10-6 Sleeper (CZ15)
All Dbl. Room SLeeper (CZ14)
Dome Obs (CZ10)
Yes, I want to build a consist from the end of the CZ era that I know have existed. So a list with one consist would solve my problems. I know that they mixed all roadnames but that is not the problem. Look at my answer to Mike for more information.
Ah, THOSE numbers. I’ve gotta admit I haven’t figured those out yet. This may designate something to help get the right passengers on the right car when boarding via having this number on their ticket. Beyond that, I just don’t know.
I do know that the decals to designate those cars come on a sheet of decals provided with each BLI car. As long as you order the right type of car to fill out the consist, you can figure out which decal to use later. They (e.g. CZ-11, CZ-21, etc) were applied near the entry door of the car. They’re so tiny that the rivetcounters would have to bring along a magnifier to see 'em anyway. I’ve just chosen to leave them off for now on my CZ and I doubt anyone will even know they’re missing.
This is a good question for the DRGW list, though. Someone there will know.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Are you looking to make a specific consist for a specific date? Reason is that the car types remained the same but the actual cars could change within the consist. That is, the Diner could be the CB&Q, D&RGW or the WP, and each of the RRs usually had more than one of that type of car. The CZ cars were bought by each RR based upon total mileage each contributed to the route, therefor the CB&Q had the most cars. Basically, if you need a baggage, diner, dome coach, 10-6 sleeper, 6-5 sleeper, observation car, etc, conceivably is could be from any of the 3 RRs. I’m pretty sure they didn’t try to keep all the same RRs cars in the same consist.
You could try the Yahoo passenger car group, someone may have data on the exact consist for various dates.
The ‘CZxxx’ numbers are the ‘line’ numbers assigned to the car. The line number specified a certain type of equipment and/or route. The CZ could and did have a mix of all 3 owners cars in the consist. It would not run with an all CB&Q consist or all WP or D&RGW consist. The train also expanded in size during seasonal changes. Some of the CB&Q ‘pool’ fleet cars could be added and the other two partners paid wheelage for the time the loaner car was on their rails. The ‘open’ section sleepers was pulled from the train and converted to 48 seat coaches in 1963-1964. After this the ‘straight’ coaches ran between the baggage car and the first dome coach. This increased the coach seating capacity of the train. Seating capacity was always in short supply on the CZ in later years. None of the lines wanted to invest in additional cars even though many times the run was ‘full’. Even the CB&Q was ‘short’ of ‘pool’ cars…
One more guess here. Given the way the consist is set up, it may be that cars CZ-10 to CZ-15 are the first class cars and cars CZ-20 to CZ-22 are the second class cars. But this is just a hunch on my part.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Sort of. The three dome coaches behind the baggage car were interchangeable especially the first two (CZ20 & CZ22). However they were still slightly different as one type had a women/children section(CZ22), and one type(CZ21) had a conductor space. As I understand it the conductors generally prefered to have their space next to buffet-lounge (not because they liked to eat, but because it was more to the center of the train) so they didn’t have to constantly walk the entire length of the train. If you choose to run the time after the “women/children” section was removed the CZ20 and CZ22 are then identical for consist purposes.
Same for the sleeping cars. Any of the 10-6 sleepers (CZ11, 14, 15, 16, 18) could be put in any of the spaces for that type of sleeper. Get a magnifying glass and look at the names on the sides of the cars in the pictures. Example, even though the “silver rapids” was a CZ11 it was not always the last sleeper in the train. This means on that train one of the other sleepers was coming/going through to NYC. Your roster should have most of this type of car (3 per train). Notice BLI doesn’t even make a CZ18 type (yet?).
Then I am certain there were always exceptions. I know I have seen at least one picture where there are only three domes at the front of the train, so I presume it was off season and they left out one of the generic “silver saddle” type (CZ20) dome coaches.
If I look at Silver Palace I can see that this is a CZ 21 Vista Dome Car (Conductor Space). Does that mean that this car can only be used in the following position in the consist?
1968-1970 11-13 cars
Baggage
Coach (CZ23)
Vista Dome Coach (CZ22)
Vista Dome Coach (CZ21) *** Silver Palace ***
Vista Dome Coach (CZ20) *** Silver Saddle ***
Vista Dome Buffet-Lounge
6-5 Sleeper (CZ19)
10-6 Sleeper (CZ18)
10-6 Sleeper (CZ16)
Diner
10-6 Sleeper (CZ15)
All Dbl. Room SLeeper (CZ14)
Dome Obs (CZ10)
I continue with the Silver Scout. It’s marked as 538 and that is also a CZ 20, Vista Dome Car. But I already have the Silver Saddle in that position. Does that mean that I must choose either Saddle or Scout in that position? Can someone please tell me if I’m totally lost or if this is the right way of thinking.
For the most part yes. But as I stated in my prior post, a I understand it the conductors prefered to have the 21 and 20 cars reversed. In one of my trains the “Silver Thistle” CZ21 will be next to the Buffet-Lounge “Silver Roundup”.
No, for the time period you have specified the “women and children” doors had long been removed so the CZ20 and CZ22 cars are essentially identical. You can put the Silver Scout in the first dome coach position.