To confirm, the RPO is Rivarossi/Hornby, also sold in Walthers labeling for a while. I have one just like it, in a Walthers box.
The second car, as Dr Wayne said, is old Rivarossi, likely 1970’s production, with the original truck mounted couplers replaced with body mounts.
Sheldon
THIS was my little clue that it might be Rivarossi:
Quite obvious is the similarity to the Walthers passenger car coupler arrangement which leads me to believe that the Walthers production is handled by Hornby.
I bought the cars from MB Klein and they were listed under Rivarossi as the manufacturer.
Happy New Year!
Ed
Ed, since their inception, those cars have been marketed in a number of different packages. In fact, at the time I bought mine, some years ago, Walthers had the 4 car sets in Rivarossi packaging, and the individuals in Walthers packaging…the cars in Walthers packaging have no brand markings, but are otherwise identical to the Rivarossi cars.
Walthers became the primary importer of Rivarossi after AHM, so it would seem logical that Rivarossi/Hornby is involved in all or some Wathers branded passenger car production.
Keep this in mind, Hornby has moved actual production to China like most everyone. It is possible that Wathers has contracted Rivarossi/Hornby to do the tooling but actual production is done directly for Walthers, but in the same factory Rivarossi/Hornby uses in China.
When LifeLike first developed the Proto line, the tooling was done by Brawa in Germany, then sent to China for production. As part of the deal, Brawa retained marketing rights of those products in Europe, and sold some Proto items in Europe under their name. And the later Proto steam locos were done in conjunction with ROCO and marketed byu them in other countries with their name…
No different than all those Whirlpool refrigerators that say Kenmore, Kitchen Aid, etc.
Sheldon
Some photos:
No point in looking at the couplers on mine, they have been modified for closer coupling and the original diaphragms replaced with ones from American Limited
Sheldon
Gotta love those web forums! Fascinating exposition from everyone, thanks very much. So, it sounds like a car can simultaneously be a Walthers, a Hornby, and a Rivarossi, depending on how you look at it. Is it safe to say, the two-screw knuckle couplers are distinctly a Walthers element, or unique to this Walthers/Hornby/Rivarossi production run? The quality of the coupler looks pretty good, in any case.
Is there anything I should look out for in terms of some knuckle couplers not playing nice with others? I assume that knuckles are supposed to couple to each other across brands, but I also assume that doesn’t always work out in reality…
Last thing, can anyone post a picture of the underside (esp. couplers) of a typical Branchline, Walthers Proto, MTH, and Rapido passenger car, so I (we) can have a good reference for what they look like? (Thanks Dr. Wayne for the nice underside shots… Do any “of-the-shelf” cars have that level of detail underneath? Is it safe to say all prototype cars have that much stuff underneath?!)
Thanks again for all your help. Also, pardon my delays in answering, my posts have to go through the moderator. (Is this always the case, or just for new members?)
Mac
I am highjacking the thread briefly to note my continuing awe at what Wayne can do, and routinely does, with commercial – and not the high end stuff, either – model railroad rolling stock.
To respond to Mac’s inquiry, that is, do any 'off the shelf" model trains have the level of detail like what Wayne has shown us, I’d venture to say that perhaps Rapido, and perhaps the old Branchline kits if built to their fullest potential. There might even be some modern era imported brass that goes that far although I can tell you that the older imported brass passenger cars such as Soho did not even come close.
Most of us mere mortals are quite satisfied with the approximations of completeness that the commercial models provide us with, particularly if we have already paid a pretty penny for those trains and just want to run them. Wayne makes silk purses out of sow’s ears, and indeed lavishes his talents and attention on models that in some cases barely rise to the level of sow’s ears.
They are also good reminders that identification of the origins of a commercial model becomes ever more difficult if a prior owner has made significant improvements.
Dave Nelson
Thank you for your very kind words, Dave. [:$]
You’re correct that many of the cars with which I work are cheapies, and many of those were also bought “used”, so were even cheaper. [Y]
I had always thought that I could afford only that type of model, but I eventually realised that my lack of money was due to the fact that I spent so much on parts and materials to make those bargains look presentable. By the time I came to my senses, I was having too much fun to change. [swg]
Wayne
Walther’s Proto and Ready-to-Run series cars have two metal strips under the bolsters what are used to get power off for lighting. That is pretty unique. The trucks are metal where the side frames are held together with 4 screws to the bolster plate.
Newer Walther’s cars (starting about 2006 or so) use their own knock-off knuckel couplers called Proto-Max. They are metal and an almost 100% Kadee clone. They are mounted on a long swing arm that is covered over by a wide snap-on plate.
Walther’s Proto Delux cars will have “aluminum” trimming around the windows.
The older 1960s-1990s Rivarossi / AHM cars have plastic single piece molded trucks with an offset mounting point. These had rp .39 wheel sets (plastic on unlighted cars and metal on cars with lights). The six wheel truck’s center axle is set higher in the truck frame than the two outside axles. The “windows” are a sheet of plastic attached to the roof that sit way back from the outside edge. This is because the roof is mounted via four tabs in the “window glass” to the floor of the car. From the underside one can see the tabs along the edges of the cars at each end. They all have truck mounted coupers where the couplers have a really long shaft. All the under car detail is molded on.
Athearn cars are shorties. They have truck mounted couplers. The windows are inserts of plastic that make them have a more flush look from the outside.
You have already identified the unique Bachmann truck linked pivoting coupler.
Broadway Limited cars come with genuine Kadee couplers. They have a unique mount for them that allows a progressive length as the swing gets further from center. It can be recognized by two plastic springy tails t
Thanks Tex, for your details comments. Any chance of posting pictures?
Also, are there any brands’ knuckle couplers that don’t work well with others? I’ve heard that McHenry’s can break after a while, under heavy loading?..
Thanks!
Mac
Okay, so here’s another mystery car, no road number, just a Great Northern smooth-side passenger car, metal wheels, plastic axles, with interiors. It looks a bit like the long shank coupler Texas_Zephyr described on Broadway Limited cars, but it doesn’t look like the coupler would extend particularly…
Any ideas? Thanks!
Mac
One look at the trucks and couplers, no question - Wathers.
The design of the trucks is unique to them.
And, respectfully, I don’t know where you are getting this stuff, or what you are paying, but the general cosmentic condition I see in the photos would cause me to walk right past…but that’s me, I do not buy stuff “already been played with”, expecially if it looks already been played with hard…
Sheldon
These are from different sources on the web, sometimes yard sales/craigslist. Some I’ve purchased, and some I’m just looking at. Mostly I’m trying to educate myself as to how to identify these, so I’ll be able to recognise a “diamond in the rough”, or know what kind of price is reasonable/a good deal. I appreciate your help, for sure! It is interesting to see how much variation in detail different brands display, across their different levels of offering. I kind of assumed Walthers was always pretty fancy, but not always, I guess. I’m definitely in the “run 'em” side of the hobby, but these particular ones are a bit scruffy… Maybe a local up to Fargo! (Did GN go there?..) Thanks!
Mac
Sherlock Holmes would find the task daunting. You can’t go by trucks or couplers either as too many old trains have been tinkered with. I too am a culprit of this!!! I’d suggest a long day on HoSeeker. Especially checking out the underneath of the carriage for it’s details. Different parts are many times a hall-mark of one manufacturer as well. Sometimes Ebay is a good source as there are many train buffs who resell and KNOW what they are talking about. Enjoy!!!