Please disregard everything that hdtvnut said in his post.
THIS IS ONLY AN OPTIONAL MODIFICATION FOR ELECTROFROG TURNOUTS WITH DCC.
You don’t have Electrofrog turnouts
You aren’t using DCC
Even with DCC, it is only optional. Most people don’t bother with this mod.
You do not need to do any of the modifications he is talking about. He his talking about modifying Peco Electrofrog Turnouts. YOU don’t even have Electrofrog turnouts. This modification is used to make Electrofrog’s super reliable when using DCC.
I think we must be confusing you with the term “feeder”. Lets just call it “track power”. With the Peco INSULFROG turnouts that you have, just a little extra thought is required as to where you put your “track power” connections.
Most of the time it will be no problem. But in some cases you might have a dead section withoutout power if the turnouts are aligned a certain way. I think you said you already found that out. If you get a dead spot from the “power routing”, just add another “track power” connection.
Have you checked out Wiring for DCC ? There are great descriptions and diagrams of both insulfrog and electrofrog turnouts.
On the insulfrog turnout, if you power (attach feeders) to the incoming rails and both sets of diverging rails you should end up with an excellently performing turnout.
If you want to make life easier for yourself, get Insulfrogs. Electrofrogs work a little better for slow steam not stalling on the frogs, but the frogs need to be powered from a remote switch as well as the points, what a HASSLE! As well as the hassle of cutting gaps, insulatiing them and so on. The people who want Electrofrogs don’t need advice. If you need advice, you should get Insulfrogs!!
Peco Insulfrogs are the simplist. They work right out of the box, no mods needed and you can switch them by hand, no remote switch (either manual or electrical) needed. They ARE power routing so you will have to drop power feeders on the diverging routes unless you WANT dead track for parking and engine. If you go the dead track route, realize the switches aren’t the most reliable and sometimes won’t route power due to bad contacts at the points. They really SHOULD make them non-power routing. You can make them non-power routing with a couple of jumpers on the bottom. I have had some trouble with shorts at the frog, but it is manageable.
If you are inexperienced, just get Insulfrogs and don’t worry about a lot of power feeds, you can drop power feeds later where you need them.
DC and DCC aren’t really any different so far as switches go, except in DCC, dead track doesn’t make any sense. I wired up my track and got DC to work, the switched over to DCC. I can swithc back and forth and my DCC system has DC over DCC so I can run my DC engine along with my DCC ones.
To be fair, though, insulfrog fan that I am, this hobby is always going to present its hassles. Even an insulfrog can go bad if the contacts or those tiny joiners between the points and closure rails get cruddy or decompose. You’ll either have to replace the entire unit, or do the jumper soldering that so many find is eventually required.
I wish Shinohara and Peco would do something about the frog rail shorts immediately after the plastic barrier. As they are, they tend to give insulfrog turnouts a bad name in my opinion.
Mr. Gibson, this just isn’t true. Depending on what size motive power you are using, you may have better luck with electrofrogs. The largest loco on my roster is the Spectrum 28 ton climax. Even they don not like dead frogs. Using 0 4 0 critters and other short locos almost demands electrofrogs.
This has got to be the hottest and most confusing topic aside from solving world peace.
What I find interesting (and I well might be the only person who does) is that Peco HO Code 83 Insulfrogs ARE Power Routing and the Walthers/Shinohara HO DCC Friendly “Green Label on the Box” Code 83 Turnouts are also insulated frogs but ARE NOT power routing.
So, both brands share the common DEAD frog, but one is power routing, the other is not.
I’m no electrical wizard, so this stuff is my worst nightmare - all I want to do is succesfully run my trains without having my locos either short out or stall (I got both that do both, a 2-8-2 steamer that SHORTS, and an Atlas Short wheel base switcher that STALLS - two different kinds of problems). I sure would like to solve both of these problems so I can enjoy the layout more.
And I may as well read about brain surgery when I refer to the famous “Wiring for DCC”. Sorry, but I find that hard to follow.
This topic is going parallel with the other forum right now as well. Maybe one day I’ll figure out this crazy puzzle…
Insulfrog just makes wiring easier, totally plastic frog, no power to it.
As long as your locos have a long wheelbase to pick power beyond the frog, no probs, its the small 4 wheel/6 wheel pickups you want an all rail frog for. The point is to prevent shorting.
I endured a trainset F7 for 20 years that only picked up on the front truck and powered the back truck. It stalled everytime I went through a cheap brass track and switch. Everyone else I knew had trains that glided through switches at any speed.
Call me scarred but I prefer to have engines and swithces that work well together. Maybe the last 20 years will be worth the pain of wiring the frogs.
Just wished that someone made a product that worked right out of the package… would make thing much simpler and much more fun!
I have read the books, read the e-mails… and I guess that it still escapes me as to what needs to be done… If I could watch someone do it, I would be able to then figure it out… more of a “on the job training” kinda guy here…
You made one of the most logical statements I have ever heard… “I prefer to have engines and swithces that work well together”… If that does not sum it up… nothing does.
As far as the book goes - i found it to be of no use… Latin is easier to comprehend than it was.
Mr. Gibson, I do not modify them at all, and I do not have shorts…at least not yet. I am just very careful how I approach the turnout, and how it is thrown. Being that my layout is a small point to point, that may have something to do with it, but I don’t know. As I increase the number of trains run at once, I am sure I will find the point at which shorts will be a problem. Oh, and I do use insulated rail joiners on the frog rails.
DAWG: According to people I talk to that have them, ‘Insulfrogs’ do NOT power route and Electrofrogs DO. Repeat after me: "Insulfrogs do NOT power route!
Why should you be concerned? You have Walthers. You want to sleep better?
With Walthers, Peco, & Atlas, you should not be getting a short, however sometimes RP-25 wheel width crosses +/- trackage and the old ‘nail polish trick’ works. There is also a possibility that your 2-8-2 is stalling, not shorting.
Just because someone says Route ‘selected’ means “powered”, or a factory worker puts stuff in the wrong box, they wouldn’t do that, would they?
Reminds me of the old song: 'It ‘aint Necessarily So’.
This has gotten silly. I just metered a Code 83 Peco streamline. I powered the rails from the points end only…via the incoming rails, not the points themselves. Through route lined, no power beyond the frog except on the through route. Diverging lined, 8.5 volts on the meter on the diverging route…beyond the frog!
In my earlier reply to this question, Don, I stated that these turnouts have power strips running under the frog. There are two. One runs from the through closure rail, just before the plastic insulating spacer, under the frog, and then connects to the through frog rail beyond the plastic spacer. Same for the diverging route, a thin metal strip connects the two rails on that route. So, the spacers isolate the frog from power, but the route selected sends power along the route rails at the frog rail end.
The frog has four spacers, one on each rail? That means the frog has no way of getting power as manufactured. You’d think the frog rails, then, would be as dead as the frog. Not so. Those thin strips in grooves in the plastic bed under the frog connect each point with their mate frog rail. The points get no power unless they are touching their stock rail. Once the power is transferred down the point rail, it must also get to the frog rail because of those thin metal strips that bridge the dead frog…from below.